Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

There are only two choices; a third/intersex space, or biological men with biological men and biological women with biological women which is the case now.

Those are the only two acceptable and workable choices.

The MRAs on this thread, if they are truly genuine, would be advocating for a third intersex space. Otherwise, they are just hurting women to placate men's feelings.

There is no other way. It's hard for the handful that have fully transitioned, but, tough, we CANNOT risk women. These facilities were created to protect women. We can't let even one through. Otherwise it's free for all.

.

@barleybadminton Placing trans women on men's wards would not make hospitals safer for women and would make them much more dangerous for trans women, and that's without issues around dignity and whether trans women would just disengage from healthcare possibly leading to deaths.

Yes, it would make them much safer for women, and less dangerous for trans women.

It's interesting that you care naught for the dignity and safety of BORN ACTUAL women who, through no fault of their own, have a male on the ward. The male CHOSE to become a woman. The women didn't choose to be women. So therefore, the onus is on the one who made a choice that will impact actual women. And that women will stop seeking healthcare. Why don't you care about that? Why are male 'feelings' and 'identity' and dignity more important that WOMEN's?

And that's really the crux of this debate. Should trans women be placed at huge risk, have their dignity compromised, and possibly feel that healthcare is not available to them to prevent someone's discomfort at sharing a ward with a trans women or an infinitesimally tiny increased risk - a hypothetical risk in fact because the only published evidence to date says trans inclusion does not place women at increased risk.

Re-write: And that's really the crux of this debate. Should women be placed at huge risk, have their dignity compromised, and possibly feel that healthcare is not available to them to prevent a male's feelings and discomfort at sharing a ward with a men or an infinitesimally tiny increased risk - a hypothetical risk in fact because the only published evidence to date says trans inclusion places women at ENORMOUS RISK.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10249633/Rape-victim-forced-quit-therapy-sessions-feels-threatened-6ft-trans-woman.html

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg?fbclid=IwAR1JhugsOSdg58PzKpMAfvzqZVXxb7mRWs93qWqQyBA6vupiwnk1U_BJOOc

www.fox46.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom/

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883?fbclid=IwAR2iMILdrlxCbawettem8KbyhpnRUfjpQIx8ZhPUiEeFGXCia1_soi-5JZI

www.foxnews.com/us/parents-speak-out-at-loudoun-county-school-board-meeting

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

transcrimeuk.com/

You should do your research before mouthing off, @barleybadminton . The EVIDENCE is in, it shows assaults on women by trans women are the SAME RATE as men. It already shows women are being turned away from women's facilities and choose not to get help. It shows that trans women are an ENORMOUS RISK to women.

You should have done your research. You are deeply, deeply and utterly ill-informed.

@barleybadminton I've already said I don't believe trans women represent the same threat as men

But EVIDENCE, documented offences, show they DO. It shows that trans women offend at the same rate as men.

So you are demonstrably and proven wrong.

According to Stonewall law - isn’t it transphobic to differentiate between trans people? So all transwomen and transmen are equal (regardless of having all or none of surgery/appearance change/gender stereotype performing), as are furries, fetishists, those with kinks, cross dressers, drag queens, non-binary people, etc, etc, etc…

Also - without gatekeeping genitals - how does one propose to determine who is a “fully” or “thoroughly” transitioned transperson to allow only those specific few onto their non-birth sex ward in the hospital?

Those born male go to the men’s ward, those born female go to the women’s. Anyone upset about biological reality in a hospital (or elsewhere) that functions according to science, medicine and fact, should have an alternative mixed sex space. Not co-opt female spaces.

@Innocenta, what you’re talking about re “fully transitioned” and a male “routinely is accepted in all social situations as a woman,” is passing privilege.

Who is going to gatekeep this? I am sure many trans women believe they pass, and some may pass very well on some media platforms.

I might fully parse Blaire White for eg as female, the next woman might not.

So, who is the great arbitrator of males who can pass and males who cannot, and who is going to explain the the males that do not, why?

I certainly would not want to be one saying ‘no’ and having that ‘dialog’ having seen the threats women receive, and further risk the police turning up to check my thinking.

No debate

No platforming

Forcing women out of employment

Acceptance without question

The Denton report with its' recommendation to stay under the radar in order to force policies and laws through by teaming with less controversial policies and laws

Public consultations being repeated if the 'right' answers aren't gotten the first time

Malicious reports to the Police

Shutting down forums where women discuss sex based rights while incel women hating forums continue because 'free speech'

The chilling effect.

Is that 'fostering dialogue'? Or is it silencing women?

We know from overwhelming evidence that trans women are just as likely to face sexual assault from men as other women

Please provide this evidence. Most men are heterosexual so are not sexually attracted to transwomen.

@Lovelyricepudding Yes, the whole concept of no debate is rubbish. I agree wholeheartedly.

We were there. The change has come about through TRA backroom deals and their #Nodebate complete with rape, death, violence and bomb threats to silence anyone who tied to speak up for women.

@Whatwouldscullydo I understand what GC feminists want. But clearly there's a large, vocal group of people who want something diametrically opposed to this, and the latter group has successfully lobbied and campaigned for changes in their favour.

In my opinion, the only realistic way to proceed is to foster dialogue. We can't just have a world that is safe for women, and running the way feminists want; because if we could, we'd be there already. Actual change is the result of debate, lobbying and policy.

I get sick of hearing the word " debate"

What's to debate.

No males however they identify In single sex spaces for women.

Debate implies there are exceptions. That there re some males who should be there amd we just need to agree which ones.

But the answer is simple. None. Zero.

If a transwoman is placed on what was a single sex ward that ward becomes mixed sex.

@Lovelyricepudding My post explicitly acknowledged this.

So the question is not 'do transwomen have a right to be in female single sex spaces' because that is impossible. The question is 'do transwomen have the right to destroy female single sex spaces?'

If a transwoman is placed on what was a single sex ward that ward becomes mixed sex. A transwoman can never be in a female single sex space they can only destroy them. As soon as a transwoman enters that space then conscious and subconscious behaviour of all the women changes. Some may be sycophantic, most will be wary. The may chat and smile to try and placate the man in their midst or they may withdraw. None, even those who claim to be comfortable around transom end when they are vulnerable, will behave as they would if they were in a female only space.

I also don't regard my views as aligning with 'Be kind'. Of course you're free to interpret them that way if you want to, but that's not how I see it.

Believe me, I am not blind to the problems and abuses going on. I think some posters are presuming I need GC 101, or that I'm very largely on the gender ideology 'side'. That really is not the case. I do understand the GC perspective; I think it's valid, totally coherent, and should be a respected point of view. I don't think GC women should be punished, cancelled, etc.

I don't, however, think the gender ideology side is all bunkum, as I know many GC people do. (I also don't agree with a lot of it, though!) I'm sure no one is going to be interested in the convoluted ins and outs of my take, and I very much doubt it's original; I'm only sharing this to contextualise my previous posts a bit further.

Innocenta Have you ever read the trans widows threads on here? These women and their children have been treated horrendously. You are advocating for the ex husbands who have fully transitioned (however rare that is) to have access to every safe space their ex wife has. Do you honestly think that is OK?

I do hold to the view that posters on FWR are often (but not always or universally) quite unpleasant about trans people

This just comes across as some of us are "not being kind". People are different. Posters with GC views have different personalities. I'm a snarky, middle aged working class Londoner who doesn't have a lot of patience for many things. I can give it out but I can also take it.
Again, it seems like you have put transwomen up on a pedestal as a sacred caste that can not be questioned and need to be accepted with kindness at all times.

I do hold to the view that posters on FWR are often (but not always or universally) quite unpleasant about trans people

People often find the word 'no' unpleasant. It doesn't mean the 'no' is unpleasant. But some people struggle when they don't get their own way. Women standing up for their rights does not equal being unpleasant to trans people. It's not about trans people. It's about women. That's it.

But single sex spaces aren't dependant on the behaviour or beliefs of the women using them.

All you are doing is emotionally blackmailing women into accepting some Male's into their spaces.

We dont consent.

Whatever issues rhay brings to trabs people that's theirs to deal witg in a way that remains respectful of single sex spaces.

Womanhood is more than a biological reality

Being a woman is a biological reality. There is no other way to be a woman apart from being born one. That's it. Men who have womanly feelings are still male. And they always will be.

Perhaps that wording was too harsh, or I should have made more effort to clarify that I wasn't applying the phrase specifically to any individual poster here. I do hold to the view that posters on FWR are often (but not always or universally) quite unpleasant about trans people, but I realise there is vast provocation from the other side, and arguably worse behaviour.

(I'm about to have a medical home visit so won't be able to reply on this thread again for a while; my apologies to anyone waiting for an answer.)