Male midwife facing 29 charges of misconduct,

I am unconvinced by the idea that single sex health care would improve that for various reasons that I've stated above.

There aren't statistics that answer that question in western society. In the places it does exist, I'm not sure that it really benefits women. The sexism still exists.

Its a classic trap of thinking that 'banning' something works.

What women need is the power being placed back into their hands in someway.

Perhaps an active campaign by the NHS on consent for patients on where they have grounds to complain as well as one for training on this for staff. Make it a central important key thing.

But the state of the NHS makes that difficult. I avoid seeing a doctor without DH because he is much more assertive than I am and knows what I am comfortable with (and how I find it extremely difficult to challenge). I can't help but think at this point that the side effect of covid and not being able to have support with you, will have particularly harsh effect on women and that its convenient for the NHS because it is allowing them to get away with a whole bunch of unacceptable things because its behind closed doors in a sense and its just one person's word against a huge organisation. I can well imagine it carrying on for far longer than it has any effect of protecting patients and staff from covid for that reason.

When you analyse a problem and think about solutions, you asses WHY something is happening, not simply look at what is happening.

So yes the stats are dreadful. The next question is why, and is there a particular common feature amongst these males. Is it just because they are male or is there in effect 'a comorbidity' going on? Can we identify it, and can we then safeguard against it.

You also ask, what else might be going on - in this case he was able to commit how many offenses? We know about so many incidents - so why was he able to do this so often without challenge from other staff? Was it because he was working alone? Is it because female staff deferred to him?

Then you come up with a range of solutions - and assess how effective they might be.

Crucial to this, I do think, is the issue that if institutional level sexism is at play here, do we think that the solution is tackling that or just making women be pushed into a corner where they have to put safety before sexism, and in the process services get even more second class with the health care system overall.

Really, we have to almost elevate the status of women's health and empower women to be demanding better care, better attitudes towards them, being taken more seriously and crucially feel they have the absoluete right to demand this rather than the mentality thats particularly rife with women that we should just be grateful for 'free healthcare' even if its substandard.

Whats very apparent from these type of threads are the number of women who generally berate other women for not sucking up something they are uncomfortable with. The 'be kind' mentality isn't helping women generally. It just sets up the notion that we are there to serve or support and that we shouldn't challenge where appropriate.

I think there are a LOT of things going on with this, and its far too simplistic to simply say 'oh all men are the problem' on this one. The framing should be more 'when are men inappropriate and why are they inappropriate' and then start from that point instead. It may reveal something specific that is a red flag and it may show up areas where women don't feel a choice is available to them, and how you go about changing that power dynamic.

Thats not saying 'but good men matter than all women' territory. Its not over simplifying the issue and its about empowering women as part of the process.

Even if they haven’t directly set out from the very start to specifically work on that role, It’s so surprise if the male medical students who are particularly misogynistic or creepy anyway find themselves drawn to the speciality involving being in authority over and having access to extremely vulnerable women and their bodies.

And this is just the ones who got caught.

Ever driven over the speeding limit? Did you get caught? Hoe many people who break the law actually get caught? Not many.

There are many many jobs in the world, and those jobs that involve regularly handling the genitals of women at their most vulnerable time, should be reserved exclusively for (natal) women.

But our lawmakes are faaaaar more concerned with protecting the feelings of whingy entitled men than with safeguarding the welfare of vulnerable women.

Are they ignorant of the facts? Or just pretend to be? Either way is not a good look for supposedly intelligent people is it?

Male surgeons and anaesthetists haven’t chosen a career where they work exclusively with women and babies. They could be working with any sex or age. I’m suspicious of men who purposely choose to work with a vulnerable group that’s exclusively the opposite sex

Doesn't stop things like this happening though.

I've given 2 sources in the hope one is at least deemed acceptable

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/05/14/pelvic-exams-on-anesthetized-women-without-consent-a-troubling-and-outdated-practice/amp/

www.healthywomen.org/your-care/pelvic-exams-unconscious-women/nonconsensual-pelvic-exams-are-still-happening

Conversations about choosing sex of provider often come up on the medical corners of Twitter and there’s always male doctors arguing that women who request no male doctors or students for gynae procedures or whatnot are discriminatory and how unfair/hurtful it is. Always alongside the ‘how would you feel if a man said NO FEMALE doctors? Would you only be treated for cancer by a doctor who has had cancer?’ tropes.

It’s absolutely astonishing

‘ Are you OK with male surgeons/anaesthetists? Or do we need a totally segregated system? ’

Male surgeons and anaesthetists haven’t chosen a career where they work exclusively with women and babies. They could be working with any sex or age. I’m suspicious of men who purposely choose to work with a vulnerable group that’s exclusively the opposite sex.

I completely understand why women want female midwives and would feel the same. However saying women should only see female medical professionals (doctors, dentists etc) is wrong, it's taking away the choice.

If I have to see the GP I always choose the one male GP over the females as he's kind, compassionate and actually listens to his patients. I've delayed appointments to see him rather than see one of the female doctors.

My dentist is male and again is amazing. My female dentist was a bitch.

I completely understand those choices are not for everyone, but why should my choice to see someone I'm comfortable with be taken away just because they happen to be male?

Article Aug 2021 Midwife Christopher Ewan www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-paedophile-nhs-nurse-admits-24744975

Article Sept 2021 Midwife Scott Butler www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9989159/Male-midwife-39-caught-stash-400-indecent-images-children.html

Article July 2021 Midwife Jack Newey Bradley www.birminghammail.co.uk/black-country/west-midlands-police-custody-nurse-21149382

Article Oct 2021 Nurse Thomas Harrison is www.latintimes.com/pedophile-nurse-who-plotted-sexually-abuse-4-month-old-baby-cut-nursing-council-489118

Article August 2021 Nurse Tommaso Rasetti www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19514005.paedophile-told-girl-pervy-man/

Horrifyingly these are all reports from a short period of time

Can you do that?

Thank you @AgathaMystery.

I wonder if most female medical staff are as genuinely accepting of requests as you? Do you get that impression?

Look until recent years i was very much a people pleaser and a worrier about What People Think. I know i'm not alone. I can think of 4 female friends off the top of my head who would want female HCPs but probably wouldn't be brave enough to ask. (I'll have to ask them next time i see them!)

I genuinely wonder just what percentage of women just don't feel 'able' to ask for female only.

How can we help this?
How many professionals (of either sex) would genuinely want to?

Loads of jobs are for women only, and quite rightly. Midwifery should be one of them.

I like to think that I would be able to say no to a male midwife but being in labour is such a vulnerable time. It's unfair to put that on someone so vulnerable.

And paramedics, drs, teachers , priests etc all have undergone lots of training or made lots if sacrifices in order to gain access.

Social workers too.

Every couple of years there is big scandal about horrific abuse in children’s homes. There is the usual enquiry and people pretending they don’t know how it could have happened.

I strongly believe that in any situation where hetero men deal with vulnerable women and children, a significant minority will offend.

The abuse in this case demonstrates that, along with many other examples in different situations.

These men will do anything to have access to vulnerable women and children- become priests, become midwives, work for oxfam abroad etc etc. They centre their whole life around access to abuse of vulnerable women and children.

So the question is why do these men do this? Why is the drive to abuse so strong in them? And how can we stop it?

So far, that's a 6% rate of men who should never have been let within a hundred miles of a pregnant woman.

Strictly speaking (other issues aside) it's the rate of men for whom there's been sufficient evidence for there to be professional and/or criminal proceedings.

There will be a higher number for whom there is not considered to be sufficient evidence but about whom there are concerns. They may well be passed from one trust to another or they will be in post.

There will be ones who are adored and against whom all evidence is discounted until such time as the number of reports is irresistible. And then there will be a history of complainants having to move jobs rather than the person in question.

Every women is going to have their own experience with male midwives/gynes/obs.

You can argue till you're blue in the face about personal experiences and anecdotes.

BUT

The bare statistics at the start of this thread are what have got it to the front page of MN today. Not stories. Facts.

Facts are what women all should be sitting up and paying attention to. What everyone should be sitting up and paying attention to.

Facts are not the same as 'fears'.

Despite the good start sadly this thread is slipping down into familiar ''but not MY husband'' and ''but good men matter more than all women'' territory.

I got annoyed at him and said these men aren't going through years of training just to see undressed women - that's the opposite of opportunistic

But they do. They really do. Men will literally do anything. A few years back there was a newspaper article about a body found in the women's loos some where. He'd crawled into a vent and obviously couldn't get out again. The article was written in such a way as to convey absolute ignorance over what a man would be doing inside a wall in the womens toilets.

Then there's the septic tank story.

And paramedics, drs, teachers , priests etc all have undergone lots of training or made lots if sacrifices in order to gain access.

The only time it has worried me was when the woman I was caring for needed a forceps delivery & the on call team were all male save the very Jnr Reg. The woman (& her husband) were insistent that the female dr perform the procedure. She was not qualified and she knew it, we all knew it. The male consultant talked her thru it on the other side of a curtain via a mirror on the wall.

We (HCP) all supported her as obvs we are very experienced in assisting with these procedures. The medical team were in an impossible emergency situation.

I was sad that the baby was jeopardised but the woman’s wishes are always paramount.

@whatfreshheck I am sure your husband is lovely but my male doctors I have been dismissed and nit listened to. When I am at my most vulnerable in labour I want someone who I feel supports me. A doctor/paramedic is very different role from the midwife who if NHS provides proper midwifery care is there for me at appointments listening to my concerns, worries and fears. There supporting me through many hours of labour. It is a very different role.

I will never get over the male obs doctor who on day 2 of the first nation lockdown walked into the cubical where I was crying alone thinking I was having a miscarriage and cheerily told me 'how are you today lovely weather, you all okay today'. Unsurprisingly I told him I was not f-ing okay I was alone with a suspected miscarriage.

I will happily see a male doctor for many things but I feel more at ease with a woman for midwifery care.

This thread is a depressing read. A few years ago my DH joked that he didn't trust men in any OBGYN role because it's "weird and creepy" and there's "something off" about a man who wants to do that job. I got annoyed at him and said these men aren't going through years of training just to see undressed women - that's the opposite of opportunistic.

These stats are not good though, maybe he was on to something. The men in these anecdotes should be nowhere near women in the most vulnerable moments of their lives.

Gross. He should be struck off.

I've had it with smear tests - made to feel like I can't object.

I had female MW - but last pg we had serious cause to complain - had proof she done wrong not once but twice - had outside group support and DH before felt we could. It was supposedly all sorted according to managment - we had such poor care it put us at unnecessary risk.

DSis had same with her MW - complained - again it was a serious with problem with evidence there was a problem with care- MW refused to see her and she got next to no MW care during pg.

It's rare any of my family complain and upshot was we recieved much worse care because we got that desperate.

With DN new consultants insisted complaints were made about previous treatment - if someone had looked at done x-ray would have seen 18 months of painful treatment was never going to work and the operation could have done earlier with fewer risks. Notes went missing as soon as complaint was made.

We heard many similar stories.

If you make it so people feel they can't object when they do raise concerns they are dimissied, minimised or blamed then it hardly surpring bad practise flourishes.

I don't entirely balme the staff though as if they felt better supported by management maybe they'd close ranks less and actually help get rid of problem HCP. So persoanlly I feel it a wider issue than male HCP.

MrBlobby it’s not too late to report that.