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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male midwife facing 29 charges of misconduct,

386 replies

TheLoneRager · 25/01/2022 21:46

NMC hearing started today, expected to last four days, of a senior male midwife accused of, among other things, having taken pictures of two women having caesarian sections without their permission and also filmed himself performing a sex act in a hospital toilet.
He faces 29 misconduct charges.

Will be watching this case this week.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10439033/Bullying-male-midwife-alleged-taken-pictures-two-women-having-Caesarean-sections.html

OP posts:
HelloFrostyMorning · 26/01/2022 11:50

And people wonder why mums-to-be want female midwives! Hmm

SmallThingsEverywhere · 26/01/2022 11:50

Do male midwives need a chaperone when performing internal exams on women in labour?

Pfbing · 26/01/2022 11:49

I'm not sure a public bashing of male midwives is acceptable really. I had two male midwives involved in my care, one who ran the antenatal day unit where I was attending weekly from 20 weeks - he was fab and did so much to make sure I got the right appointments for induction etc. And then the midwive who delivered DD was male. It never even crossed my mind to question his intentions, he was caring, calm and professional. As I would expect from any midwive. And he handled it bloody well when I bled alot after. Don't brand all male midwives bad because of a few

Just10moreminutesplease · 26/01/2022 11:49

@draramallama

I had a female sonographer who shoved me, without warning, so hard that I nearly fell off the bed. When I said it hurt she rolled her eyes and muttered something about the baby’s position while continuing to push and shove. My stomach was sore for days.

So because the NHS allows abusive female HCPs to remain in post that reassures you there would be appropriate safeguards against abusive male HCPs? Confused

I'm sorry she assaulted you. I hope you felt able to complain.

Absolutely not. I’m just demonstrating that my experience was the opposite of a PP. I think there should be more safeguards in place full stop. Obviously we can’t ban all female and male health care workers, so maybe we should concentrate on ensuring women are treated well overall?

If you read the rest of my post, I mentioned a few male health care professionals who were fantastic and I saw a good many female midwives. Some were lovely, some should never be around a vulnerable person again. The issue goes beyond sex.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2022 11:49

@MananaTomorrow

I wonder if maybe part of the issue is that women find it harder to make complaints about male HCPs so issues aren't flagged as quickly as they might be with a female.

Or they are instantly dismissed because you know hysterical women + system that protect men/consultant as being gods who can do no wrong…
Same with the police btw.

A reflection of how our society sees women despite the whole ‘we are all equal now’ discourse.

Yes indeed.
BlondeDogLady · 26/01/2022 11:49

I am sad for the younger me tbh

In my 20's and 30's I found it so much harder to question professionals, whereas now in my 50's I couldn't give a toss who I offend.

However, I do remember going for a hospital appointment, because I had a poorly ear that the GP couldn't get to the bottom of. The very first thing the doctor asked me to do was strip to the waist! For an ear problem! I was only in my 20's then, but I declined and left immediately.

When I needed an internal exam when pregnant (aged 27), the old doctor commented on how pretty my pants were - that's not right, is it?

When I had a miscarriage, the male doctor spent so long fiddling about inside me, that the female nurse barked at him that he needed to stop and that was enough now.

All a long time ago, and I never think about it, until I read something like this.

I never have a male do smear or breast screening. If I turned up on the day and the female nurse was sick, I would leave and rearrange the appointment.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2022 11:48

I think the problem with a single sex service, is would that improve things for women? Or would that create a whole set of other issues where women's health provisioin gets even worse precisely because of sexism.

Would we have adequate representation (and actual voice) at board levels etc in terms of getting the right funding levels etc for example?

I think its an ideal that strike me as perhaps needing a 'be careful of what you wish for' and a question of whether it would be a solution to institutional level sexism within healthcare. I very much have my doubts.

Bettyboopawoop · 26/01/2022 11:45

What about all the other male midwife's who have worked hard to get where they need to be? You cannot tar all males with the same brush! There's good and bad in every proffesion.

Laiste · 26/01/2022 11:41

I would be very interested to hear about

a) how female midwives/nurses feel when a woman requests female only care.

b) the experiences of women who have asked for female only care.

I've had 4 DCs, lots of smear tests. It's only in the last couple years i would say i would be 'brave' enough to ask for female medical staff only for intimate medical care. Previously i would have worried about being viewed or treated as a nuisance.

Threads like these help.
And getting older and more feisty.

I am sad for the younger me tbh.

MananaTomorrow · 26/01/2022 11:40

I wonder if maybe part of the issue is that women find it harder to make complaints about male HCPs so issues aren't flagged as quickly as they might be with a female.

Or they are instantly dismissed because you know hysterical women + system that protect men/consultant as being gods who can do no wrong…
Same with the police btw.

A reflection of how our society sees women despite the whole ‘we are all equal now’ discourse.

MananaTomorrow · 26/01/2022 11:36

@MaryAndHerNet

For all the NAMALT types in here.. You need to add a few extra letters to that.

Not All Men Are Like That... But All Men Are Potentially That So Women Need To Minimise Their Risk Of Harm.

NAMALTBAMAPTSWNTMTROH

But if all men are potentially dangerous, then we, women, should only be treated by women.

I personally don’t believe the idea that MW are different because we are vulnerable at the time of birth and we’ve been building a relationship with thé MW.
There many other times when we are vulnerable. From an internal scan to treatment for potential cervical cancer to check ups etc etc. And that’s just the ones involved with gyne stuff.

I don’t think we can have a no male MW but I’m happy with a male OB or gynaecologist for example. (Or someone in ICU, ED etc…. to be honest).
For me, it’s either, I consider all make to be potentially a danger so no male should be doing any gyne stuff (so MW, sonographers, gynaecologist, OB et…).
Or we consider that actually most men are OK and enough is done to protect women from the bad apples and men are OK in ALL of those disciplines.

Fwiw I think that the clear pleasure some men find when ‘treating women’ si all down the patriarchy and misogyny. The less assault of women is tolerated in the wider society, the less problem women will have during birth etc… The issue isn’t male MW imo. It’s the overall attitude of society towards women and the fact men get away with it. It just so happen that when giving birth some of those behaviours are more visible (or don’t feel as normal than just as unacceptable behaviours that we see on a daily basis iyswim)

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2022 11:36

'Male midwives are bad' seems to be the phrase here.
But barely a comment about gynacologists.

My experience with a male midwife was that he was extremely woman centred. To the point that he went across the grain with it. I do think he was able to get things pushed through that a woman in the same position wouldn't have been able to - because sexism. And I think this has massively benefitted women in the long run.

He had become a consultant midwife by this point and as such wasn't practicing as much and was much more in a management role.

I am very grateful to him and the disabled midwife who effectively were my advocates against 'the system'.

He left before I had DS (I was having an ELCS by choice so he was never going to deliver my baby).

So I actually think that woman having ago about the phenomen of others saying male midwives being brilliant, are missing a factor in why they might be thought of as that - and not because they are doing the same as female midwives. For me it was precisely because he was male, that I think he was listened to by 'Higher Ups' and was needed because of the sheer degree of institutional sexism.

Thats not right - female midwives should absoluetely be able to do the same. The reality was - for all the reasons by women often don't get senior management roles - that he was able to work all these longer hours, have the career, not worry about childcare etc etc.

And yeah, I don't think we will see calls for the banning of male gynocologyists either.

On the flip side of this, my SIL is a doctor. When she was still training and hadn't decided on the speciality she wanted to do, she was frustrated by the pressure that was present to get as many of her fellow female colleagues to go into 'female health' and she very much felt this way almost restrictive and a sexist attitude in its own right because it was almost 'that was where women belonged'.

The problem goes back to institutional level sexism and a disregard for women and women's health and needs being second class and services for women being a cinderella service which isn't thought of as being an area of prestige.

The worst bit is, that in doing this, it sets up women for poorer health throughout life and that has massive impact on society as a whole. And this has a ripple effect through economics too.

I am not unaware of the irony of why my male midwife was brilliant. It was precisely because of sexism and him being a male worked for me precisely because it meant he was able to navigate that sexism for the benefit of women. I think things would be a hell of a lot worse for a lot of women but for having a male in this role. Its frustrating as hell, and doesn't stop the sexism, but it has moved things forward from the position it was before in some ways although I think the NHS is also rolling back in other ways in terms of women's care.

He went on to work for Birth Rights who I very much think do essential work in this area of advocating for improvements in centring women and upholding their rights in maternity. He didn't have to do this. It was a role on top of practising. And again of course, the reason he probably had time to do that, was because he was a bloke.

What is important is that women have the right to refuse a male midwife - in a tangible way - as in they aren't put in a position where a male is the only person available and they have to suck it up. And that they are subject to greater safeguarding checks generally. Unfortunately in the context of covid staff shortages and midwife shortages generally, thats not happening - and I think thats ultimately where the problem starts to creep in, because 'any midwife is better than no midwife' essentially becomes the mantra and the reality for Trusts. And that also provides and environment where it is much easier for abusers to fly under the radar and get away with unacceptable behaviour because hospitals don't want to have to acknowledge a problem, if that means they are down on staff as a result. Thats about patients effectively being an inconvenience and staff being more important than patients - we've almost slept walked into a situation where its staff centred care rather than patient centred care.

We know generally that women have poorer outcomes with various male HCPs. And the reverse isn't true for men. So its not an issue just restricted to midwives by any means. Naturally there will exceptions to this - on a personal level its a woman who set off my health care anxiety and I've subsequently found she had an appalling record and reputation and was eventually 'asked to leave' as a result.

I wonder if maybe part of the issue is that women find it harder to make complaints about male HCPs so issues aren't flagged as quickly as they might be with a female.

Brainwave89 · 26/01/2022 11:35

This all feels quite harsh TBH. I am sure that men can make good midwives just as women can do any job a man historically used to do. I do not think we can have it both ways. Friend had a male midwife with no issues at all.

PineappleCakes · 26/01/2022 11:34

@MaryAndHerNet

For all the NAMALT types in here.. You need to add a few extra letters to that.

Not All Men Are Like That... But All Men Are Potentially That So Women Need To Minimise Their Risk Of Harm.

NAMALTBAMAPTSWNTMTROH

Absolutely Mary.

Recently I've been thinking about NAMALT even more and I've realised it just deflects from the problem of male violence (against both women and men).

NAMALT may be true, but perhaps All Women Fear the Actions of Men, the potential for harm from men.

Safeguarding exists to protect people from all potential risks and women shouldn't have to apologise or make excuses to safeguard themselves.

letmeeatcrisps · 26/01/2022 11:34

@KevinTheKoala

But what happens after we stop men doing certain jobs? Do we then stop women doing certain jobs as well? Are you OK with male surgeons/anaesthetists? Or do we need a totally segregated system? Stopping men from perusing a midwifery career is not the solution, a smaller number of males will want to become midwives and therefore obviously we do notice the abusive and sick ones more than we do the good but that doesn't meant that their aren't good male midwives, nor does mean there are not horrific female midwives. There needs to be closer monitoring of not just skills and knowledge but personality and whether or not that person is really suitable to work with vulnerable patients.

Obviously everyone has the right to refuse a male midwife and that should not change - that is absolutely 100% fair and I do think it should be asked before the woman goes into labour so that she isn't put on the spot or feels forced to accept. But I don't think its a good idea to deny people certain jobs because of their sex again.

Single sex services wouldn’t prevent men from working, it would just ensure that male medical staff work with men and female staff work with women. In light of the recent study in which male surgeons were found to provide worse care to women and women surgeons had no such bias, I support single sex services wholeheartedly. The Statistics clearly show that women are safer as medical professionals, especially for women.
ExConstance · 26/01/2022 11:34

I would have had no objection. I paid a lot of money to have my first delivered at a private hospital by a male obstetrician (Yheudi Gordon, he was amazing) and have only met one female gynaecologist at NHS hospital appointments. I've always been very respectfully treated and as midwives are also medical professionals I would anticipate the same.

Laiste · 26/01/2022 11:33

Why is it so hard for intelligent women to see past their own ''lovely husband'' and understand the bigger picture?

It's really odd.

ArabellaScott · 26/01/2022 11:33

@whatfreshheck

My husbands an ITU doc. Should he just treat men then? If he is the only consultant on call should he not treat a woman? He also works for the air ambulance. Sometimes it's an all male crew except for the pilot. Should he not treat women in labour that's gone wrong?
He shouldn't treat any woman that for whatever reason has asked for female only care, as is clearly understood and laid out in NHS docs/policies for very good reason. HTH
LilithOfEden · 26/01/2022 11:21

Once again, someone thinks a safeguarding matter is a personal attack on them and their's. Take the emotion out of it. If that stats show that 8% of male midwives are sex offenders (and those are the ones that have been caught), that's a shocking statistic.

Aside from safeguarding, then yes, there is an emotional element to feeling safe and dignified when you are in the most vulnerable situation you are likely to be in as a woman outside of being in the midst of a bodily crime. I had a male midwife and he was an utter arsehole. He had not the faintest idea what I could be going through during an arduous labour because he is a man, nor did he pretend to have any empathy with it.

I would have absolutely no problem at all having medical care administered by professionals along a sex based divide in situations of none emergency intimate care.

lucillelarusso · 26/01/2022 11:18

I had a male midwife. He was rough and unpleasant and really upset DH. My labour stopped and I had a c section. Any attempt I made to discuss what I felt was mistreatment was met with accusations that I had PND or mental health issues.

whatnowwhathow · 26/01/2022 11:18

The woman who wrote a glowing letter for her boyfriend which meant he escaped jail is also at fault.

I think the issue here is how to stop the dark web trafficking and abuse, not how to get rid of all male midwives.

oakleaffy · 26/01/2022 11:14

Awful.
It makes one wish that all Midwives were women.

I had a very violent internal examination while pregnant from a male doctor {who asked that my DH not be in the room with us!}
It was incredibly painful, and I swear no woman would have been so rough.
I still remember his short, white wellies and blue scrubs...and smug expression.
Horrid.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 26/01/2022 11:14

@MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor - jeez that's awful - why was he allowed to be on his smart phone whilst you were in labour?

I know. I asked that of the female midwife. I was in a room on my own, so I guess it provided better opportunity for him to do that. Thing is, the female wasn't even slightly surprised by what I said, which makes me wonder if anyone else had also said something.

You've got no idea what he was up to, could've been harmless, could've not been!

I know. It's the not knowing. Part of me thinks it might have been alright, another part of me wonders if there's photos exchanged amongst his friends or uploaded on a website somewhere. I tried to talk myself into thinking it was probably harmless, but the positioning of the phone, (at slightly the wrong angle for typing, but exactly the right position for taking a photo / video footage,) makes me think it wasn't harmless.

Croissantly · 26/01/2022 11:10

Controversial maybe but I don't think men should be able to be midwives. I know there are men who specialise in women's health in other branches of healthcare but I don't think it's the same as a profession of which part is really building relationships of sorts with women

MaryAndHerNet · 26/01/2022 11:10

For all the NAMALT types in here..
You need to add a few extra letters to that.

Not All Men Are Like That... But All Men Are Potentially That So Women Need To Minimise Their Risk Of Harm.

NAMALTBAMAPTSWNTMTROH