School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

Why not attempt answering some of the actual questions asked for pages now. My questions are just at the top of this page. There are plenty of other practical questions though that no one has answered.

Instead posters have indulged in a fantasy that you can tell which male is a risk and which male is not adequately to keep 100% of 14 year old girls safe.

Coming back and admonishing people for ‘disaster planning for things’ is yet another attempt to shame people. It is an indication you have nothing to offer but virtue signaling.

Case by case does make sense. That way, all the facts without random speculation and
disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen. Think about the kids involved

As I said, This was the liberal thought at the time with many intellectuals supporting it. Indeed, some took advantage of the law to have sex with children.

As I said, not all ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ is better for society. It is ridiculous to think it is.

binglebong

There was a good article in the times, but I cannot find it.

But this might be informative too.

www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/25/memoirs-writers-highlight-sexual-abuse-in-france-metoo

This might be of interesting.

France has long had a reputation for having a more relaxed attitude towards sexuality. From the Marquis de Sade to Michel Foucault, sex has often been viewed in intellectual circles as a matter of personal freedom. Matzneff and Springora’s mother are part of the “soixante-huitards”, a generation born from the protests of May 1968 who relished the freedoms of the sexual revolution. In the 70s, intellectuals including Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Roland Barthes and Bernard Kouchner signed petitions calling for a lowering of the age of sexual majority to 13.

And this.

In Consent, Springora writes of how no adults stepped in – parents, teachers, friends, doctors or editors – to stop Matzneff. In La Familia Grande, Kouchner – whose own father signed a petition calling for the decriminalisation of sex with 13-year-olds in the 1970s – writes: “Many knew and most of them acted as if nothing were wrong.” But Page predicts other stories will come to light as the intellectual and cultural elites start to change: “There’s a new generation of women editors and agents who are activists. They are politicised and they are angry.”

(despite examples historically where this went very wrong and only now 40 years later are victims even able to speak - yes look at the French lowering of age of consent in the name of liberal and progressive thinking

I don't want to derail an important thread but have you any links on this (or to a thread)? I've not heard anything on it and think I need to learn more.

Well, I think OP can rest assured that any poster who has admonished her, or tried to tell her that her daughter is in the right, or that of course this mixed sex accommodation should be accepted, has no answers to exactly HOW this is to happen.

That it is all a fantasy and that any teacher or safeguarding lead who is championing it, probably has a political agenda that when faced with questions about 'what would happen if...' has no answer that will prevent harm to your daughter.

The fact that not one poster has answered the question as to how this male has changed so that they are different enough to the other males on the trip to be treated as being exempt from safeguarding protocols shows that they cannot answer. Because every one will see that changing sex is not possible. Ever.

It is all very nice to say 'it should happen' but no one can tell you how it 'actually' works.

And how the hell they can actually properly assess each male carefully enough to ensure NOT EVEN ONE girl is ever harmed in this way that is not in itself cruel. I mean imagine telling male A 'you can share', but No male B, 'you cannot share'.

That is the consequence of 'case by case'.

I really think some posters need to front up with actual answers because their credibility is zero or stop trying to shame OP for her stance.

I remember the “no means no” campaign. Some posters here, I’m sure, would a) deliberately and obtusely appear not to understand; b) claim “well, I am sure that there must be SOME circumstances when no means yes”.

No means no. Stop pushing the boundaries.

Another thing this thread shows is the dogged determination to see Mumsnet as “the Most Transphobic Place On Earth”.

I can’t believe anyone reading this thread, who is new to these issues, can take anything away from this thread other than adults insisting on protection for children and young people. Yet not only are pertinent questions ignored, post are met with a shrug and a response of “she doesn’t want her kids sharing with a trans kid” with the implication that it is transphobic to not want this for your daughter. But ignoring the questions, which boil down to “can you give ANY assurance that a transgirl would not have consensual sex with a natal girl to show where your belief that all will be well to have mixed sex sleeping arrangements comes from?” shows either a) the poster does not understand that a male child with a trans identity is reproductively the same as a boy who does not (worrying) or b) the poster believes trans people are somehow entitled to whatever they want despite what consequences may be, but can’t or won’t explain why that is.

How many times on this thread has it been necessary for posters to explain to some hard-of-understanding posters that there should be no - that means none whatsoever/zero - case-by-case decision making?

As it happens, I was in a youth organisation which did have a procedure for mixed sex sharing. It was only ever for exceptional circumstances, each instance had to be authorised by a senior officer, and changing never ever took place together.

I only saw it implemented once, when there was one too many males for the male berths on a ship (I was U18 myself at the time). He slept in the female accommodation, but always changed with the other males and had to vacate if any if the females needed to change. Being on a sailing ship, having six small bunks in a narrow passageway meant that the risk of anything actually happening was fairly low, given the number of potential witnesses (the other occupants, plus passing [female] adults) and the sheer impossibility of squeezing two of you in the same bunk. Even so, groping was a potential risk.

Once upon a time, when I was still in my very early 20s and fully engaged in LGBT+ advocacy on the internet, I believed transwomen should use women's toilets, and domestic violence refuges, and that it was a shame that other MNers were such t**fs. At that time, there was an AIBU thread from a mother asking if she should let her daughter's best friend sleep over. The best friend was a male child who identified as a girl.

Do you know what my opinion was? My opinion was NO, because an unplanned pregnancy does not become less damaging to a teenage girl's health and future because the sperm provider has their own problems with gender dysphoria. I remember struggling to explain to clueless people that transgirls (male people who identify as women/girls) could be attracted to girls and women, and that most of my acquaintances were in relationships with women. I suppose it was a long time ago, when the image of transwomen was the male-attracted Hayley Cropper, but there is no excuse for this kind of lazy assumption
now. There are many transwomen in the public eye who are in, or have a history of, relationships with women, and multiple children, from Caitlyn Jenner, Jane Fae, Gabbi Alon Tuft and many more.

And for the record, it is even more important to protect teenage female transboys (female people who identify as men/boys) and female teens who identify as non-binary from unplanned pregnancy, as they commonly suffer from tokophobia (fear of pregnancy and childbirth). This means unwanted pregnancy may intensify their gender dysphoria and thus have devastating consequences for their mental health.

[quote niclw]@foodfiend I haven't read through all of the comments above but as a secondary school teacher who has previously run residential trips I would feel the same way as you. If I was running a trip and was told the policy that my school had was the same as your DD's I would be refusing to take the trip. Safeguarding is about every student so if the school will not take your concern further I would go to Ofsted and raise a safeguarding concern. I would do this myself as a teacher about my own school if I felt it was necessary. In my opinion the trans child should be given their own bedroom in the same way they have their own changing rooms for PE at my school. I hope you get to a point where you find a solution. Good luck [/quote]
I know of a school where a parent was insistent that their daughter who self identified as a boy must be able to share a dormitory with 5 boys on a school trip. This child was new to the school (year 10 I think) and staff raised safeguarding concerns about after learning that other children (including the teenage boys) weren't aware of the situation. The parent then produced a threatening letter from one of the trans organisations.
This resulted in staff refusing to go on the trip which was then cancelled.

And I will add-

What do you do when there are 2 transgirls on the same trip and one has friends who agree and one has no friends and a reputation for being a bit creepy.

How do you explain to the parents why Alex is allowed to sleep with theor friends but Ashley can't.

Surprised you work in a school and need to ask this. Of course DBS needs to be renewed when the expire, just as it’s good prescribe to have one for each setting even though you may have a valid one already. I have 4 current ones for various work/volunteering roles.
Worrying that someone working in a school, even on an advice basis needs to ask that.

But what if her mum says it’s ok? No DBS needed then, surely!

I have a question for you here. Imagine that there is a rule that if a baby is conceived by a pupil on a school trip, the most senior member of staff has to pay all medical costs of the girl, and all financial costs of of bringing the baby up, from birth until 18. Including childcare costs, after-school activities, their school trip costs in secondary school and so on.

You are the chief executive of a chain of 50 academies, each comprising 2000 students, and accordingly you are the most senior member of staff for all these schools. Sleeping arrangements on school trips at all these schools is decided on a case-by-case basis, but you will bear the financial consequences if any member of staff (most of whom you have not met) at an individual school misjudges the situation, and a teenager gets another teenager pregnant.

Are you happy with a case-by-case policy when every individual error by a complete stranger could cost you hundreds of thousands of pounds?

I am just going to post the unanswered questions again on this page so I can keep track because they are growing. And readers can see the lack of thought that is coming from the posters who are supporting 14 year old males being accommodated with 14 year old females.

I can only put it down to lack of thought about the actualities of how this would work, because I don't want to think that those posters are aware of the harms and simply ignore them for the sake of being 'kind' and being 'tolerant'.

1. How has this male child has changed so that for safeguarding purposes they are no longer to be treated as male?

2 What studies and statistics are there to prove that these transitioned males are in anyway safer than other males?

3 How many female students are acceptable collateral damage in the name of this 'progress'? How many girls being harmed is acceptable collateral for this supposedly progressive approach? Please give us a number? 1, 2, 10, 25, 1000?

1. What does a 14 year old girl do in a situation where they get to the room and discover that they are actually NOT ok with the arrangement anymore, but because a group of teachers and parents have decided that it is 'kind' and 'nice' that they have agreed to share a space with a male, that 14 year old girl feels they cannot change their mind?

1. Where does a 14 year old girl go if the worst scenario does happen (and we hope that it doesn't ever happen) and they feel that they have to 'live' with their decision and stay in the same room as their abuser. Because, they agreed to this arrangement?

1. How does ships know that no girl has yet been harmed? How many girls live in a world where their abuse takes a while, sometimes years, to process? Or is ships relying on the new style of activist thought of ‘It doesn’t happen. If it did happen, it was just the once’ and not on the historical evidence that even males supposedly deemed ‘100% safe’ do commit sexual abuse? Including loving and caring ‘friends’ and teenagers.

1. Who exactly benefits from lowering the boundaries that protect all females, but particularly children? Who? The women and children involved? Or the person who wishes access to the spaces that the safeguards are there to protect? Or the people who wish to see those boundaries eroded for other reasons that are harmful for those with lowered boundaries?

What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that in every single instance, that male is now exactly the same as them? What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that the sex of the person never matters?

1. 'On a case by case scenario, how exactly does a safeguarding lead ascertain the sexual function of a 14 year old male without asking very private information that should not have to be asked or disclosed? How is this NOT transphobic to subject this male to this treatment when a blanket policy removes any of this requirement?'

Any takers?

@foodfiend I haven't read through all of the comments above but as a secondary school teacher who has previously run residential trips I would feel the same way as you. If I was running a trip and was told the policy that my school had was the same as your DD's I would be refusing to take the trip. Safeguarding is about every student so if the school will not take your concern further I would go to Ofsted and raise a safeguarding concern. I would do this myself as a teacher about my own school if I felt it was necessary. In my opinion the trans child should be given their own bedroom in the same way they have their own changing rooms for PE at my school. I hope you get to a point where you find a solution. Good luck

What is the difference between these two children?

Well, by these case by case it’s ok if the parents are ok ideas a transboy can share with two boys and I guess a girl could share with two boys - as no one has provided any reasons why this case by case scenario would rule that out as long as the kids are ok with it and the parents too.

Which, again, is not the purpose of safeguarding procedures in a school setting. Parents aren’t the Designated Safeguarding Lead, neither are the pupils. Members of SLT are and they need to justify why mixed sex accommodation is acceptable, not push into to everyone else. That is their job.

Ships isn't posting in good faith clearly.

It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away.

Excellent. Can you please tell us how you can tell the difference between one male and their intentions and another please?

And do you honestly think a 14 year old female who is has a trans identity should be treated with less care and safeguarding consideration than any other 14 year old female?

What case by case criteria are you talking about?

If a horn teenage boy claimed a trans identity the protocol is to affirm it. How do you tell the difference?

How transphobic to he ignoring acceptance without exception.

‘ Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys. ’

Do you mean a trans boy? Or some scenario where a teen girl wants to sleep in a dorm full of boys?
According to Op - in this CASE- it’s a room for 3 not a dorm. It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away. And, in this case, the parents have said they’re not happy for their DD to share with this trans girl so it’s not happening.
Which is why ‘case by case’ is relevant.