School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

I think this situation where your daughter has chosen to is fine. But agree school shouldn't be leaving children to resolve this and parents should definitely need to give permission. Your dd sounds like a great friend.

If you had read my previous posts you would see I was high lighting the problems this " case by case" approach would bring.

Not listened to this [[https://twitter.com/widerlenspod/status/1487025925288087558
Wider Lens podcast]] yet (although I'm sure it's as excellent as they always are).

But the displayed quote from psychiatrist Stephen Levine seems relevant here.

One of the first things that I try to say, if it seems at all relevant to a new trans person, is that number one, they're a human being. And what is true about all human beings must be true about them. Yeah, they think of themselves as a special case. And many of the affirmative clinicians think about them as a special case. And I say, 'nope.' You're a human being.

Many would do well to bear that in mind. (Also with respect to women, in the other direction...)

Thanks snoodsy. An excellent précis.

Never fails to be horrible reading .

This thread is really depressing.

To place responsibility for adult decisions on to the shoulders of young female pupils then forcing understandably worried parents to take the 'bad guy' role is abhorrent.

All so the school/LEA can wriggle out of their safeguarding duties lest they upset the activist organisations they've no doubt paid to misinterpret and lie about law and policy.

Gender ideology is a complete wrecking ball to all things safeguarding. Eventually we will look back and wonder how on earth this was allowed to happen.

whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance

I've seen that excellent article before, which comes from a place of actual trained professionals who when safeguarding are not solely considering not even the best interests but the wish list of one specific group and have a really quite alarming disregard for and bias against all other groups of children, particularly the female ones that groups such as Stonewall have modelled.

What are the risks of abandoning all known safeguarding processes to keep male and female children separate while in the care of staff away from home in order to permit a male child to sleep where they wish and with whom they wish?

• female children may be excluded from this trip because they cannot share mixed sex facilities which may be due to disability, trauma, faith, belief or culture, which may leave the school open to action re discrimination and failing to be inclusive of all instead of just the male child (nine characteristics remember, not one)

• risk of emotional coercion to female children to lower boundaries against their consent due to pressure of male child/their peers/staff and putting those female children in the position of feeling forced to put the male child first
• risk of female children having an emotionally threatening and distressing experience on this trip around loss of privacy, dignity, sense of safety and sense of their emotional needs being regarded as equal to a child who is male
• risk of TQ+ male child experiencing stress and distress over whether or not they may be permitted to be with the female children or a female child/parent may say no
• risk of TQ+ male child who female children clearly express a refusal to share a room with quoting previous precedent and enforcing presence regardless of female children's consent with obvious distress, bad feeling and issues for all..... wtf do we do then? (Cancel the trip probably)
• risk of TQ+ male child experiencing an allegation from a female child in the vulnerable position adults let that child get into
• risk of female children experiencing harassment or assault with risk of life time emotional and relational harm
• risk of female child experiencing unwanted sex or even rape with obvious life long emotional, relational, and possibly physical or reproductive harm
• risk of other female children in that room being exposed to sexual experiences that may or may not have gone well, and ending up witnesses with all resulting emotional harm or under pressure to keep secrets for peers to a severity that usual safeguarding strategies would prevent
• risk of female child acquiring an STD while in staff's care
• risk of female child experiencing the extreme risks of a pregnancy and the very major life impact of this upon her and her parents
• risk of said parents suing the living daylights out of everyone concerned
• risk of an OFSTED investigation for failure in duty of care and safeguarding
• risk of Local Authority inquiry including a possible serious case review
• risk of how the fuck this would look on the front page of the Daily Mail (this IS a serious safeguarding 'lets stop and think' check)

All this, balanced against what?

• the risk of a TQ+ male child having to follow standard safeguarding procedures at night for sleeping arrangements, and cope with the disappointment that their sex and not their gender is the deciding factor.

Trouble is we treat them all " special " then place them In dangerous situations then when the inevitable happens, somehow instead of taking responsibility for making the demands that lead to the incident incident in the first place, uts eveeyone else's fault fir providing poor health care or not supervising sufficiently etc.

Never ever , is the link.made that maybe if we didn't put them in the situation in the first place it wouldn't happen. Akd on fact the fact it did happen.is then used as emotional.blackmail to make further demands which again lead to dangerous situations which are everyone else fault , lather rinse repeat...

I’m starting to think “case by case” means “treat trans kids extra special” to these posters.

Not read the whole thread but the point of 'case by case' is it doesn't relate to the child but the situation. So "Do girls require safeguarding and privacy from boys (however they identify) in sleeping arrangements on an overnight trip?" That is the case to be considered, not what we think of a particular child or the opinion of the girls

That would just male things worse.

Sir...why to believe I.a girl when you do the register but not when we change for PE.

Miss, why does Sarah get to stay with Kat and Lucy on the school trip but I have to stay witg James amd Owen.

Sir sir sir either I'm a girl or I'm.not why are you being a bigot and making me sit in the boys catch up science class.

A firm.No to any of it and they'd know where they all.stood regardless.

Sorry. To add. He was obviously mentioned in that article.

Binglebong

Not to derail further, but look up Michel Foucault and Queer Theory. I mean it is relevant to this thread. It is all about destabilising science and established thinking around societal mores. Including some safeguarding protocols.

Thank you Hellofabore. That was deeply depressing.

DERAIL OVER

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz (About the Loudoun County rape coverup and aftermath.) Sorry so long.

It’s such a multifaceted, slow motion train wreck but I will attempt the Reader’s Digest version.

It ended up a shit show for the Democrats, as it was election year. The Loudoun County rape cover-up turned an entire state’s election on its ear. Virginia was easily a democratic state, they had a Dem Governor who was a shoe in for re-election and he was many points ahead in the polls. Republican challenger Younkin was never expected to win.

Then came the humiliating fiasco and arrest of Mr Smith (whose daughter was raped) at the school board meeting, where they painted him to look like a deranged lunatic. One famous photo plastered everywhere showed him getting dragged out by policemen at the school board meeting with his large belly hanging out and his bum pulled out of his pants.

We even had Pres. Obama speaking out about it (unusual) and calling the row with Mr. Smith and the rape claim 'fake outrage' and ‘phony trumped-up culture wars'.

Then the coverup by the school board busted wide open after the rapist did what rapists do, raped again.

Two brutal rapes were committed by a trans student; one child was raped and sodomized in the school’s inclusive bathrooms, after which the rapist was hustled off to another school in the dead of night to continue raping.

Within two weeks after all of this came to a head and the rape coverup came to light, the election turned on its ass and R-Youngkin handily won. Youngkin ran and won on keeping our children safe and wanting parents to have a say in what we teach our children.

Moral of the story: Desperate people will sooner get your ass arrested and have the President help cover up your child’s rape, even shuttling the rapist to greener pastures, then come clean about their monumental safeguarding screwups.

Not read the whole thread but the point of 'case by case' is it doesn't relate to the child but the situation. So "Do girls require safeguarding and privacy from boys (however they identify) in sleeping arrangements on an overnight trip?" That is the case to be considered, not what we think of a particular child or the opinion of the girls.

I wish that just once the TRAs would calmly answer all the questions women asks. If there was a logical dialogue, this would be easier.

In the absence of any sensible dialogue about risks and gender identity, nothing prevents parents to have transgirls - or indeed boys- at a sleepover with their daughters. That is a parental decision which possibly could be done on a case-by-case basis.

This is what a school should be allowed to do when they have parental responsibility. Safeguarding is paramount in this situation and of course worst case scenario needs to be considered. Of course there cannot be any exceptions.

Well I am hoping your wait is not too long Necessary.

I am hoping CrymeaRvr and ships will both simply stop repeating the virtues of ‘case by case’ and tell us all how it works in this scenario.

You have asked questions, I have asked questions, many of us have asked questions.

And….. crickets chirping so far.

Snide and sly remarks and superior morality is all we are getting from them at the moment though.

Well, quite. I think previous posters are labouring under the delusion that a teenager would tell everyone in advance that they thought the privacy of the upcoming overnight trip was going to be the perfect time to reveal their crush and ask their friend out.

Perhaps schools are expected to use mood rings as part of the decision-making process.

Cripes, do I have stories to tell you all about a day trip that turned into adolescent drama after one kid thought the picnic was a good time to publicly act on the crush that no-one knew he had. If it had been an overnight trip, he would have waited until the evening, and they had more privacy- it certainly would have gone rather better for him if he had.

all the facts

The ex-14-year-old boy in me wonders how on earth the modern-day school authorities can possibly know all the facts about what's going on inside boys' and girls' heads about what they're planning for upcoming school trips given the chance of some mixed-sex accomodation.

Must have been some serious breakthroughs I missed.

Or are we talking like some sort of application form here? Score enough points and you get to sleep with someone of the opposite sex?

Please, talk me through this determination process. I'm fascinated to learn more details.

Hang on, just going to nip over to Arabella's shed, grab one of her foldy chairs, and sit here and wait for the presentation.

Facts?

Even the ones you don’t like?

An article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:

extract
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

www.excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

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CrymeaRvr

‘ Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys. ’

Do you mean a trans boy? Or some scenario where a teen girl wants to sleep in a dorm full of boys?
According to Op - in this CASE- it’s a room for 3 not a dorm. It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away. And, in this case, the parents have said they’re not happy for their DD to share with this trans girl so it’s not happening.
Which is why ‘case by case’ is relevant.

Do trans girls not have sexual urges and the capacity to fall in love with schoolmates? I assure you, they do. They are teenagers. They develop crushes like other teenagers.

I have a question for you here. Imagine that there is a rule that if a baby is conceived by a pupil on a school trip, the most senior member of staff has to pay all medical costs of the girl, and all financial costs of of bringing the baby up, from birth until 18. Including childcare costs, after-school activities,theirschool trip costs in secondary school and so on.

You are the chief executive of a chain of 50 academies, each comprising 2000 students, and accordinglyyouare the most senior member of staff for all these schools. Sleeping arrangements on school trips at all these schools is decided on a case-by-case basis, butyouwill bear the financial consequences if any member of staff (most of whom you have not met) at an individual school misjudges the situation, and a teenager gets another teenager pregnant.

Are you happy with a case-by-case policy when every individual error by a complete stranger could costyouhundreds of thousands of pounds?