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Original poster

School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

740 replies

foodfiend · 24/01/2022 09:18

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 18:03

The toolkit is clearly based on the same template as the one which was withdrawn in Oxfordshire following a legal challenge, and has since been withdrawn by multiple other authorities.

I was in contact with our safeguarding office for my LEA (it is shared with neighbouring boroughs) and let them know it was withdrawn and to not use it and mentioned the court case that WAS active before the withdrawal. It took some reminding, but in the end they sent out communication to all the local schools not to use it.

It seems that the school's governors will be quite interested in hearing from you OP if they have not been following the fact that the guidance being used is no longer current.

Original poster
foodfiend · 31/01/2022 17:58

Thanks @LarissaFeodorovna It's a bit buried in the thread, but the current situation is that the school say they are following the guidance from the LEA safeguarding lead, and have forwarded the LEA's 'trans inclusion toolkit'. The section on residential trips simply says 'trans pupils and students should be able to sleep in dorms appropriate to their gender identity' Unless they don't want to, in which case other arrangements can be made.

It does not acknowledge the existence of any other children, or parents. If the school were really following this guidance, we probably wouldn't even have been informed. So, they do know it's not right.

I have asked:

  • Can you send me the actual safeguarding policy, as this clearly isn't it? (Only mentions safeguarding to say that there are no additional safeguarding issues raised in relation to trans children.)
  • Can you tell me what risk assessments have been carried out in relation to this document/approach?
  • Does the school's insurance policy cover mixed-sex sleeping arrangements on school trips?

I haven't yet had a reply.

The toolkit is clearly based on the same template as the one which was withdrawn in Oxfordshire following a legal challenge, and has since been withdrawn by multiple other authorities.

I haven't (yet) pointed this out, but that will be my next step if I haven't had a response by tomorrow. They've had the best part of a week.

I do encourage anyone who's uncomfortable about this scenario to contact their dds school and find out what their policy is now. Don't wait until you or your child are put in as uncomfortable a situation as we are in.

As someone (I think @Helleofabore ) showed clearly upthread, it's about balancing an extremely long list of hopefully unlikely but serious potential harms to children (including trans children) against the harm of a trans child being told that sleeping arrangements are arranged by sex not gender, and their experiencing distress as a result.

Safe Schools Alliance have information and a template letter: safeschoolsallianceuk.net/get-involved/lea-schools-trans-guidance/ This includes links to the 'letter before action' used in the Oxfordshire legal action, and laying out the ways in which the toolkit misrepresents equality law.

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/01/2022 17:54

@CrymeaRvr

‘ Whilst parents have to frequently hey their own.cakes back at a bake sale amd donate toilet roll and scissors or whatever there is always miraculously money to convert toilets to " gender neutral " amd to provide a sue fund ‘

Trans kids are now why school funds are being decimated? I was pretty sure that was the Tories.

Imagine that there is a rule that if a baby is conceived by a pupil on a school trip, the most senior member of staff has to pay all medical costs of the girl, and all financial costs of of bringing the baby up, from birth until 18. Including childcare costs, after-school activities, their school trip costs in secondary school and so on.

You are the chief executive of a chain of 50 academies, each comprising 2000 students, and accordinglyyouare the most senior member of staff for all these schools. Sleeping arrangements on school trips at all these schools is decided on a case-by-case basis, butyouwill bear the financial consequences if any member of staff (most of whom you have not met) at an individual school misjudges the situation, and a teenager gets another teenager pregnant.

Are you happy with a case-by-case policy when every individual error by a complete stranger could cost youhundreds of thousands of pounds?

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 17:50

paying lobby groups for inaccurate legal advice and building facilities on the basis of said advuse is hardly a sensible use if funds

This is true. And it is why so many organisations are pulling out of supporting Stonewall. Their advice seems rather unreliable. But I guess we need to wait for the EHRC to confirm about single sex facilities and how the EA2010 is being interpreted at the moment. Hopefully not too much longer before they release their advice on this.

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 17:47

Well hundreds of FOI requests to multiple organisations including schools and councils etc revealed thousands being paid to stonewall.

Given the debt in finding these days you cannot deny that paying lobby groups for inaccurate legal advice and building facilities on the basis of said advuse is hardly a sensible use if funds

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 17:43

‘ Whilst parents have to frequently hey their own.cakes back at a bake sale amd donate toilet roll and scissors or whatever there is always miraculously money to convert toilets to " gender neutral " amd to provide a sue fund ‘

Trans kids are now why school funds are being decimated? I was pretty sure that was the Tories.

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 17:38

(and also how their insurance providers feel about that)

This is what surprises me thr most. That between that , parents not being aware so not making informed decisions/consent, and any outside agency having written themselves out the responsibility grom the start, when something happens the school is going to be on its own covering the financial costs

But I guess that's another strange anomaly. Whilst parents have to frequently hey their own.cakes back at a bake sale amd donate toilet roll and scissors or whatever there is always miraculously money to convert toilets to " gender neutral " amd to provide a sue fund Hmm

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/01/2022 17:37

This thread is starting to get properly nutty.

You posted that you weren't answering questions on the practicalities because you hadn't read them, and yet we are to trust your assurances that you have good answers.

Now that's "nutty".

LarissaFeodorovna · 31/01/2022 17:18

@foodfiend, apologies if it's got lost in the noise, but I haven't seen whether you've challenged the school on this and if so what their response has been?

The school has effectively organised a mixed-sex sleepover for 14 year-olds. Anybody who claims to not see any possible problems with that arrangement is either lying or has spent their entire life living under a stone.

I'm baffled as to how there's even 600+ messages-worth of discussion about this, but I'd love to hear how the school are defending it (and also how their insurance providers feel about that).

NecessaryScene · 31/01/2022 17:10

It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist.

Oh, hadn't really thought of that. Yes, Dickens really loved skewering Victorian moralisers, all wrapped up in their own worldview. It does have very similar feel, doesn't it?

Artichokeleaves · 31/01/2022 17:04

@CrymeaRvr

‘ It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist. Children being starved and beaten in a room with LOVE written on the walls.’

This thread is starting to get properly nutty.

Do go on?

How is an example of conflicted thought - it is ok to believe in one thing while doing another in obvious hypocrisy - 'nutty'?

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 16:54

‘ It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist. Children being starved and beaten in a room with LOVE written on the walls.’

This thread is starting to get properly nutty.

Artichokeleaves · 31/01/2022 16:38

Quite. It's rather like the ranting about "I hate haters" Confused and "can't we all just love everyone (except them over there who I disagree with.)"

It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist. Children being starved and beaten in a room with LOVE written on the walls.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 16:14

Point me to any comment I’ve me made that demonises anyone?

I have been thinking about this further.

I wonder if there are posters who are so entrenched in their prejudice against people who don't agree that a sub group of people should get special treatment in safeguarding decisions that they simply cannot see the denigration and derrogation in their posts? That some posters have been so often fed the line that they are the righteous and on the right side of history and those disagreeing are ignorant and hateful that they actually believe that.

So, they never even pick up the snark, the undermining and that denigration in their interactions with people. They cannot even see it.

It is rather like projecting that 'others' are not willing to discuss things, despite asking many questions, so therefore why bother to even read questions posted that are hugely relevant to the thread.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 15:48

The coercive pressure on us to go along with this is immense.

And I imagine if it is so immense for a parent, that a 14 year old girl is absolutely not ever going to let on that they have concerns. That related to some of the questions that some posters have decided are so irrelevant to their kind of safeguarding that they won't even bother reading them.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/01/2022 15:31

It surprises me that anyone who works in a school wishes to rely on the personal judgement of 14 year olds. The people I know who work in schools regularly deal with the repercussions of 14-16 year old who send nude photos to others, on the understanding the same-aged recipient will not share them.

Then the recipient breaks his/her promise and the image files fly around the school.

Waitwhat23 · 31/01/2022 15:29

@foodfiend and no, you're not the bad guy. You're a sensible parent trying to make sure that your child is kept safe from harm.

Waitwhat23 · 31/01/2022 15:27

Who can actually stand up and say, "Women and girls should be coerced into reducing their boundaries"? And still think they're the good guys??

Indeed. When I realised that there were people (including Governmental bodies) who were defending the inclusion of males (including convicted sex offenders) in the female prison estate and that the women in these prisons were being threatened with sanctions and punishment for protesting was when I realised the complete lack of empathy, sympathy or humanity towards women and girls as a sex class displayed by a depressingly large group of the population.

This is just yet another example. Girls being coerced by social pressure to 'be kind' is a real concern, to their own detriment. And if they're 'not kind', I'm sure they'll be pressured into it by the School's behaviour management for fears of being branded a bully, or a transphobe. We can't have feelings hurt, right?

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 15:22

Good luck OP. And covid makes this even more difficult to navigate.

Original poster
foodfiend · 31/01/2022 15:18

Evidently, I don't think we are the bad guy. I'm furious that the LEA/school have allowed themselves into a situation where they're unable to say no to anything a trans child says they want, and we're left having to be 'the bad guy' by pointing out the potential risks of this approach (or 'bleating' if you prefer) @CrymeaRvr Do you really feel proud of dismissing and belittling our concerns for the safety and well being of our child (AND their trans friend - there are plenty of scenarios here which could be a very bad outcome for them too)?

As has been pointed out many times, safeguarding is precisely about thinking about potential risks and how to mitigate them. You can dismiss that as 'disaster' thinking or 'random speculation' if it makes you feel more comfortable. But safeguarding is there to protect all children, even the ones whose parents would rather not think about what could go wrong.

OP posts:
ClawedButler · 31/01/2022 15:14

Jesus, that's chilling:

The coercive pressure on us to go along with this is immense. The idea that a child would have any kind of free choice in this situation is absurd.

It is coercive. It is pressurising.

Didn't a lot of people make a lot of fuss about coercive/pressured decision-making about sex?

Who can actually stand up and say, "Women and girls should be coerced into reducing their boundaries"? And still think they're the good guys??

Original poster
foodfiend · 31/01/2022 15:07

I haven't buggered off. I am reading with interest, while dealing with the extremely unpleasant fallout of this situation for my family. This isn't a theoretical argument for us. (Plus two of us have tested positive for Covid, which is another layer of fun to add to the whole thing.)

@CrymeaRvr I think it was me who said I'm not happy about dh and I having to be the 'bad guy'. I have to say, before this, I would also have said that I'm prepared to be unpopular with my kids and say no to things they want. I've done it often enough. However, they haven't usually had a school/local authority policy to back them up, nor have they felt able to threaten to report me to the police for hate speech for not going along with what they want. A threat which doesn't seem particularly hyperbolic given what's going on in Newport. The coercive pressure on us to go along with this is immense. The idea that a child would have any kind of free choice in this situation is absurd.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 15:00

OP certainly did use that term.

OP certainly did NOT use that term.

Sorry. doing too many things at once.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 31/01/2022 15:00

So, I am sure that this is not happening Mr Blobby.

I am sure you are right. I am certainly absolutely certain this is one million billion trillion percent not happening. Absolutely not. No way. Not a chance. Nope. #ThisNeverHappens

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 14:53

of buggering off. not for.

Swipe left for the next trending thread