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Original poster

School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

740 replies

foodfiend · 24/01/2022 09:18

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 24/01/2022 12:53

I'd check with the LA. Some have removed the same guidance after it was threatened with legal action.

And some have left the diversity champions scheme.

SantaClawsServiette · 24/01/2022 12:53

This is a terrible policy idea. There is a reason the rooms are single sex and that doesn't change because of gender identity.

I'd also point out that this is a risk for the male student. Kids of 14 are not noted always for their good judgement, it's perfectly possible something could happen where a pretty normal male makes a bad choice about fooling around or jokes that makes the girls uncomfortable, they don't quite know how to handle it as an older person might, it escalates, and then there is some kind of sexual offence being attributed to this student.

That is not a good way to start out your teenage years.

I'd talk to the school, ask them what their line will be if something goes wrong.

Original poster
foodfiend · 24/01/2022 12:50

So the position is that the school have told the children that I've vetoed the arrangement. Great.

School policy is not to have a policy, and to treat every case individually, and say that they're following local authority advice. I have said that I think this might sound nice, but is ultimately unfair on those individuals, and the children/parents who are put in the position of having to look like they're accepting or rejecting them personally. Before you even start on the risks they're opening up/ precedent set.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 24/01/2022 12:50

@Wreath21

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends. Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!
Please explain what this has to do with safeguarding?

At all?

Do we safeguard based on the 'sweet, shy, goodhearted' ones? or is safeguarding in place for every one? Regardless of how sweet?

Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

Do crack on with your hyperbolic scolding. The more people see this type of post, the more they start thinking that they need to scratch the surface to see why someone would post such a thing.

And having people start actually reading the facts, and what is protocols around this are, and should be, from original sources, the more people realise your post is unfounded. No one here believes they're all predatory. But ONLY a fool would believe the opposite either.

MarciaDidia · 24/01/2022 12:50

The thing is, once you establish the precedent that trans girls can share on a mixed sex basis, you're kind of stuck with it (ie the school is stuck with it). What happens if, next time, the person is someone the girls are not comfortable with? Then it becomes much harder for the girls/school to say no to sharing and easier for the trans girl to feel hurt or the girls to feel guilty/unkind.

PearPickingPorky · 24/01/2022 12:45

@Wreath21

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends. Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!
Does this mean you are against all separate spaces and services for men and women, boys and girls? Just everyone in together, all the time?
JustcameoutGC · 24/01/2022 12:44

Please god, i hope wreath21 is not in a position of responsibility over children. How many of your nice sweet teenage boys are accessing hard core porn on the internet, sharing naked pictures of girls they know between themselves, sending unsolicited dick pics to their peers? The answer to that question is, you have no fucking clue how many. AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE SAFEGUARDING.

Whatwouldscullydo · 24/01/2022 12:43

If the boys are all so sweet then the transgirl will be perfectly fine with them then. I mean no ones suggesting that the other girls are merely props to affirm a child's identity would they? I mean girls are more than that surely?

MrsBrodie · 24/01/2022 12:41

So it's ok to do away with safeguarding if most of the group are sweet?

ThatsWhenTheCannibalismStarted · 24/01/2022 12:37

I'm not sure what's more shocking, the school asking 14 year olds to safeguard themselves (or not), or people here claiming posters who prioritise safeguarding are nasty bigots. How the hell have we got here?!*

*rhetorical, obviously

ClawedButler · 24/01/2022 12:35

No-one is saying "all teen boys are dangerous".

But no-one can tell from the outside which boys, if any, may pose a threat.

So, boys and girls are separated for sleeping and washing, in the interests of privacy and safeguarding. There can be no accusations against the boys. There can be no issues with girls having their spaces invaded. Everyone is protected.

I'm sure you're right that the majority of boys are nice. But if you know how to spot a predator from the pack reliably, please do tell the rest of humanity because that would make these issues vanish.

littlbrowndog · 24/01/2022 12:34

Exactly what has safeguarding got to do with manners and being sweet and shy

It’s called safeguarding for a reason and it is for everyone. That includes the sweet and shy

Whatwouldscullydo · 24/01/2022 12:31

What have manners got to do with safguarding ?

You don't get a free pass fir behaving or being nice

ClawedButler · 24/01/2022 12:29

you have bought into the scaremongering that all trans people are predators.

No.

You appear to have bought into the hysteria that anything to do with protecting women and girls from potential harm is transphobia.

Wreath21 · 24/01/2022 12:26

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends.
Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

LarissaFeodorovna · 24/01/2022 12:24

Surely the question to ask the school is whether they would agree to a girl sharing with her non-trans male best mate if they were both happy with that?

And if not, why not?

The school need a rocket up their backside, because they have not bothered to think this through and by fudging the issue have created a gap in their safeguarding you could drive a bus through.

Hmm
CovidCorvid · 24/01/2022 12:18

I’d be asking them if ofsted were on board with their new lack of safeguarding.

VexedofVirginiaWater · 24/01/2022 12:13

@Itsalmostanaccessory

If the school ever tried to make the move into forcing this on girls in the future then that's a problem. But I'm not seeing this as a trans issue. Just friends sharing.

On our Paris trip, most of us piled into one room two rooms to chat/watch movies/mess around and we fells asleep wherever we were. So the whole thing was mixed sex. Teachers didn't know but that's what happens.

Taking a school trip to France in the early noughties there was a small outing in the evening to the local beach, the kids were told they were not obliged to go, so some didn't. For some reason they presumed that all staff were going and so they would not be supervised. As the one remaining staff member I had the dubious pleasure of throwing the boys out of the girls bedroom and asking them to socialise in the communal area where they could be supervised by old cock blocker me. I was a narrow minded old witch apparently (and worse) but oddly this hasn't ever bothered me.

Teachers didn't know but that's what happens.

Sadly true no matter how vigilant you are, you have to sleep some time - which is why I gradually withdrew from overnight school trips.

Original poster
foodfiend · 24/01/2022 12:12

@Wreath21 This is exactly the reaction I'm worried about. My worry is about males and females sharing. It's not a judgement about trans children or this individual child, but it will be interpreted as if it is. I would not be happy with her sharing with any other males, no matter how nice. I wouldn't have concerns about her sharing with a lesbian friend, because that lesbian friend would be female. People deserve privacy from the opposite sex, and female-only facilities provide safety from the sex which is larger, stronger and commits the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crime. Most men would not harm women, but we still don't let them all into our changing rooms and dormitories.

Dd does like and trust this child, but they don't actually know one another very well. The children are under immense social pressure to be inclusive. If she wasn't comfortable I don't think she'd feel able to say so. I think the school are being fantastically naive pretending that the children are making a completely free choice here.

Dd is now having to tell her friend that we're not happy, which is horrible for both her and A. You're right that this is upsetting, but I don't think we should have been put in the position of having to make this call.

OP posts:
ShrillSiren · 24/01/2022 12:06

@Wreath21

FFS. This is your DD's friend who she likes and trusts, and you are trying to impose your own ignorant bigotry on the friendship group. The kids were told that they could choose who they shared a room with, an they did so. Now you want to meddle, embarrass your DD and hurt her friend's feelings because you have bought into the scaremongering that all trans people are predators.

Maybe consider how you would be behaving if DD's friend was a lesbian (while DD isn't)?

Do you think the school would allow the girls to share with any boys they chose to, just because they are friends? Why is this any different? What is in someone's head doesn't change the fact that transgirls are male, the same as the boys.
Whatwouldscullydo · 24/01/2022 12:05

Again wreath

Safguarding applies to ALL. No matter how nice, who's a friend, who's old or young etc

Everyone. The aim being to avoid putting people into unsafe or awkward positions.

We do not ignore it because it upsets people. Or because irs inconvenient. Or because they are besties

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/01/2022 12:05

A lesbian isn’t potentially going to get another girl pregnant hth

God the wilful ignorance of safeguarding is mind boggling

They are 14 - they haven’t the first clue about a huuuge number of things in life one of which is a teenage boys (however they may present) sex drive

PearPickingPorky · 24/01/2022 12:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post.

Original poster
foodfiend · 24/01/2022 11:59

@BuanoKubiamVej Thank you, you've put that very well.

OP posts:
Wreath21 · 24/01/2022 11:58

FFS. This is your DD's friend who she likes and trusts, and you are trying to impose your own ignorant bigotry on the friendship group. The kids were told that they could choose who they shared a room with, an they did so. Now you want to meddle, embarrass your DD and hurt her friend's feelings because you have bought into the scaremongering that all trans people are predators.

Maybe consider how you would be behaving if DD's friend was a lesbian (while DD isn't)?