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Original poster

School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

740 replies

foodfiend · 24/01/2022 09:18

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 24/01/2022 16:22

@NecessaryScene

I’m amazed that so many organisations seem happy to leave safeguarding in the hands of teenagers

As a 14-year old, I certainly would have been very happy to advise the adults on what I was okay with. Particularly with regard to sex segregation.

Adults seemed to be more adult back then though, and weren't having it.

Grin
Artichokeleaves · 24/01/2022 16:22

It's not complicated.

The safeguarding rules are that males and females sleep separately. End of.

Feelings do not change reality. Sad and touching anecdotes do not change reality. Having achieved wonderful things via a personal journey do not equal being allowed to break this boundary. Children really really wanting to break this boundary does not equal being allowed to break this boundary. Arguing that a transitioning child is not the same a male child does not equal being allowed to break this boundary. The boundaries are there for the children's protection ffs and also for the staff's protection, while they are in the care of school staff. Feels don't come very high on this list.

Trans children should absolutely be able to have different provision to the others of their sex if they wish: this is the respecting of their identity and meeting their need. They are not an exemption to safeguarding.

Pressuring female children into accepting special exception male children into their accomodation will simply exclude female children where they or their family are unable to sleep in mixed sex situations. if the staff are far enough out of their trees to indulge this truly insane idea with nothing more than hope, a lot of ideology and a wilful blindness to the basic reality of the situation

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 24/01/2022 16:13

It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

Teenagers aren't hugely different now. They just have different challenges to face. One being adults not actually adulting and putting the responsibility on them instead.

Basic safeguarding. Segregation by sex. Not gender.

NecessaryScene · 24/01/2022 16:10

I’m amazed that so many organisations seem happy to leave safeguarding in the hands of teenagers

As a 14-year old, I certainly would have been very happy to advise the adults on what I was okay with. Particularly with regard to sex segregation.

Adults seemed to be more adult back then though, and weren't having it.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/01/2022 16:08

I’m amazed that so many organisations seem happy to leave safeguarding in the hands of teenagers

Of course youngsters are not as concerned about these things as adults, the clue would be in the “young” part. There are still teenage girls who think you can’t get pregnant the first time or if you’re standing up. It is adults job to safeguard them from things they don’t yet have the experience to really understand

It also bears remembering that lots of “trans girls” are not in fact gay but straight

BlackAlys · 24/01/2022 16:07

Ask for an impact assessment. The health and safety lead should be shot if they've allowed this.

Clymene · 24/01/2022 16:05

@gogohm

Whether it's ok does vary depending on circumstances. On choir tour we had a gay lad and he shared with his best friend, a straight girl, they were 15 and parents were consulted - they both had slept over at my house before then too, he was one of the girls! I was a bit uncomfortable but it was just as awkward with him sharing with one of the lads as they were uncomfortable and there wasn't money in the budget for spare rooms so they had singles. It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends
Nope, never appropriate. Very poor safeguarding.
Whatwouldscullydo · 24/01/2022 16:05

Being friends does not mean they don't deserve the same dignity and privacy as everyone else.

Why cant a gay boy be in with the boys. Wtf

Teach the boys not to be so homphobic fgs

Clymene · 24/01/2022 16:04

As a poster up there said - her son's boyfriend is female. So they are in a heterosexual relationship and it would be massively inappropriate for them to share a room on a school trip, however they identify.

gogohm · 24/01/2022 16:02

Whether it's ok does vary depending on circumstances. On choir tour we had a gay lad and he shared with his best friend, a straight girl, they were 15 and parents were consulted - they both had slept over at my house before then too, he was one of the girls! I was a bit uncomfortable but it was just as awkward with him sharing with one of the lads as they were uncomfortable and there wasn't money in the budget for spare rooms so they had singles. It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

NecessaryScene · 24/01/2022 15:56

Anyone who come home pregnant needs to share with others who could come home pregnant.

Those who can make someone pregnant should stay together.

It's almost as if a whole urbanised segment of society is totally divorced from the basic principles of animal husbandry.

We don't keep males and females apart because of their hair lengths or facial markings, you know...

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 24/01/2022 15:53

@NecessaryScene

One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person.

A (male) cynic like me would suggest that teenage boys can spot an easy opportunity to get laid. A lot of boys will tell a girl anything she wants to hear to get into her pants.

A girl desperate for affirmation of her identity from a boy is a potentially easy mark... Female "boys" are going to be quite popular. And more easily available, if they're foolish enough to let them sleep with the boys.

This. 💯
CanIPleaseHaveOne · 24/01/2022 15:46

[quote ServeBacon]**@foodfiend

they are all friends anyway and supported her thru her transition and coming out at school. Parents know the teen group well - it's a non-issue really.[/quote]
I don't believe it is a non issue.

Anyone who come home pregnant needs to share with others who could come home pregnant.

Those who can make someone pregnant should stay together.

Schools are remiss and cowardly to place this on the shoulders of parents.

titchy · 24/01/2022 15:44

@beachcitygirl

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?
Bingo!

Why is this a concern though - do lesbians not have the same anatomy as straight girls or something?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 24/01/2022 15:41

Literally no difference whatsoever. None.

SantaClawsServiette · 24/01/2022 15:38

@Qwerty2019

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male. I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.
This child is a male identifying as a girl. With a penis, sexually fertile, and quite possibly sexually attracted to girls.

So how is this different than allowing any other male teenager to sleep with the girls?

NecessaryScene · 24/01/2022 15:36

One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person.

A (male) cynic like me would suggest that teenage boys can spot an easy opportunity to get laid. A lot of boys will tell a girl anything she wants to hear to get into her pants.

A girl desperate for affirmation of her identity from a boy is a potentially easy mark... Female "boys" are going to be quite popular. And more easily available, if they're foolish enough to let them sleep with the boys.

NecessaryScene · 24/01/2022 15:31

So...what are the ways that do matter, and those that don't?

Lipstick and penises, respectively?

Blossom64265 · 24/01/2022 15:30

I would just put my foot down and tell my child that there will be no sleeping arrangements that could result in pregnancy. You may not be able to influence school policy, but I would make it very explicit to the school that you do not give your own minor child permission for mixed sex sleeping accommodations.

SirVixofVixHall · 24/01/2022 15:28

@LarissaFeodorovna

Surely the question to ask the school is whether they would agree to a girl sharing with her non-trans male best mate if they were both happy with that?

And if not, why not?

The school need a rocket up their backside, because they have not bothered to think this through and by fudging the issue have created a gap in their safeguarding you could drive a bus through.

Hmm

Agree with this. Yet again I feel that the adults have left the building.
MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 24/01/2022 15:27

@beachcitygirl

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?
Lesbians are women and girls. Same sex attracted. So why would there be an issue with that? There is a massive safeguarding issue when schools decide to segregate according to gender identity rather than biological sex.
ClawedButler · 24/01/2022 15:25

Ah, so he's a girl in "every sense that matters".

So...what are the ways that do matter, and those that don't?

And it's not about this particular kid anyway - it's about the precedent it sets, and the inappropriate shunting of responsibility for safeguarding onto a vulnerable group.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 24/01/2022 15:24

[quote ServeBacon]**@foodfiend

they are all friends anyway and supported her thru her transition and coming out at school. Parents know the teen group well - it's a non-issue really.[/quote]
Eh? Are you the parent of the transgirl? Or one of the teachers. I don't think it's your place to say that its a non issue about somebody else's daughter. And this goes against the rules of mixed sex accomodation.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 24/01/2022 15:24

@beachcitygirl

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?
Are you aware that a lesbian isn't a trans-woman?
JustcameoutGC · 24/01/2022 15:23

This thread is genuinely scary. Despite everything we have learned about safeguarding (assume everyone is a risk, identify worse case scenarios, put in place plans to mitigate risks, do not create sacred castes) , despite the clear and obvious risks that arise from mixed sex sleeping arrangements amongst teens, despite the obvious difficulties this would create for the girls who want to say no, there are multiple parents on here that think this is ok. My mind is genuinely boggled. In the words of Magdalen Berns, your minds are so open your brains have fallen out.

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