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Original poster

School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

740 replies

foodfiend · 24/01/2022 09:18

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

OP posts:
JustcameoutGC · 01/02/2022 09:23

Good luck this week foodfiend, hopefully you fighting this battle will mean that parents coming after you wont have to. I know that wont make what you are doing any easier, but hopefully is some small comfort. And even if your school does not reverse its position, I know plenty of us will be checking policies before we land up in the same position as you.

Original poster
foodfiend · 01/02/2022 09:15

Glad we've cleared that up @CrymeaRvr We're all in agreement that people should be treated respectfully and not referred to by body parts.

So would you like to help me understand why you wouldn't be worried by this scenario? Because I am, and other posters here say they would be, though you've said you can't be bothered to read the posts explaining why or outlining risks.

What makes you feel that this is would be safe?

  • Do you think that males and females sharing is safe if they're friends?
  • Do you think that a trans girl is not male? (By which I mean male in the traditional meaning of the word, in order to avoid having to reduce people to body parts, which we've already agreed is not appropriate).
  • Is there something else that makes this safer than any other scenario where males and females would share?
  • Or do the trans child's feelings have more weight than any other possible serious outcome, for them or others?

I'm guessing your position is the last one. This is clearly the position of the LEA/school policy. But it would be useful to be sure I've understood you correctly, and I'm not missing something important. Believe me, I would love to be reassured that this is a safe arrangement.

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/02/2022 01:48

I learnt a new word today: ‘forwaked’. It means, weary from watching and waiting for something that never seems to materialise.

Thank you, Susie Dent!

Waitwhat23 · 31/01/2022 22:36

That's a very interesting piece of selective quoting.

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 22:24

‘ there's lots of change to language relating to women and girls - 'those with a cervix', 'menstruators’

I know and it’s irritating beyond belief and often complained about here as it should be. There’s room for respectful language all round when talking about people.

Original poster
foodfiend · 31/01/2022 21:51

I don't think any one should be referred to by their body parts, it's dehumanising. I expect previous posters were sarcastically highlighting the hypocrisy that women are expected to put up with being referred to as 'menstruators' or 'uterus owners' in medical contexts, while men are not referred to as prostate people or ejaculators, and making the point that redefining the formerly useful words 'boy' and 'male' make it very difficult to talk about the situation in question in clear and comprehensible terms.

Anyway, now we've got that distraction out of the way, @CrymeaRvr do you have any responses to the questions about safeguarding? Do you honestly feel that this is a safe situation, without risk of harm or embarassing/ distressing situations for any of the children involved? (You've said you wouldn't be happy for your dd to share a dormitory with boys. Why is this different?)

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 31/01/2022 21:39

@Whatwouldscullydo

Would be worth asking for the equality impact assessment too!

They are usually eaten by the dog ir something but ya might get lucky

It's that bloody Welsh terrier they own in Cardiff. It's a bastard for eating equality impact assessments. (And all the minutes of every meeting the impact assessment was decided on, discussed and fed back on, and used as a basis for decisions; the details of who was instructed to carry out the assessment, and any email trail of those communicating while commissioning, carrying out and feeding back on, it's like magic.

But the IA definitely did happen Miss. Honest. You can ask my Mum.

I believe they loan the terrier out on request to other govt bodies.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 31/01/2022 20:43

Now I feel sad. Sad

I have had so many people here telling me how unreasonable it is to be opposed to “cervix haver”. I thought that since TRAs are the ones insisting on referring to people as “havers” of the relevant organs/genitalia, they would applaud me.

I think penis person is very accurate in this context. There are so many, valid gender identities and I am supportive of every single one. I also support gender fluidity.

But when it comes to sleeping arrangements and showers, we need to separate out the penis people.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 31/01/2022 20:24

@CrymeaRvr

‘ penis people’ - I thought the general feeling on these boards was that it is ridiculous to identify people by their genitals? Cervix havers, people with vaginas etc so why is okay to talk about trans girls like this?
Happy to call them boys if they prefer. But that's generally not popular amongst some of the trans community. I believe penis haver is an accepted description though. 👍
littlbrowndog · 31/01/2022 20:11

Good work food fiend 💪💪

littlbrowndog · 31/01/2022 20:09

What’s wrong with you crymearv

It’s safeguarding

Applys to all children. No exceptions

That’s it

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 20:08

You know that’s enough tactic used by activists. Ignore all questions and comments and focus on something that is not really relevant to the thread.

There is a word for it - sparple.

Waitwhat23 · 31/01/2022 20:04

It's funny though - there's lots of change to language relating to women and girls - 'those with a cervix', 'menstruators' etc but no change at all to the language which relates to those who have a penis. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, one would think.

The poster using the term 'penis people' is using the TRA approved, 'inclusive' term (albeit unusually relating to males). Why is that not a good thing to anti women posters? Surely we're doing what we 'should' be doing?

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 19:51

‘ penis people’ - I thought the general feeling on these boards was that it is ridiculous to identify people by their genitals? Cervix havers, people with vaginas etc so why is okay to talk about trans girls like this?

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 19:37

Besides presumably they'd be a plan in place if anyone objected. Cant thet just do that from the start and save the hassle.

Unless of course that plan was a girl who's parents they knew wouldn't give a shit and a girl whod keep quiet?

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 19:35

And there would be no pressure on any other parents and no issue with parents who didn’t speak English very well

And the teachers ?

It was made clear on a residential trip dd1 took that male staff would not enter rooms occupied by the girls unless there was an emergency.

Are you going to force a male teacher to search/enter a room with girls. Or put a female teacher in the position of having to supervise a male in the room.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 31/01/2022 19:21

The section on residential trips simply says 'trans pupils and students should be able to sleep in dorms appropriate to their gender identity' Unless they don't want to, in which case other arrangements can be made.

This helps though. Dorms are sex segregated so the appropriate form for a biological male is the boys. There is no evidence of greater homogeneity of gender identity between this boy and girls than this boy and other boys and there can't be until someone defines it

Doubletoilandtrouble · 31/01/2022 19:11

I think there should be an opt-in for this. It would solve everyone’s problems.

Parents could tick the box “yes, I am happy for my DD to share a bedroom with a person with a penis on school trips”. And then, given that opt-in, the school could do the case by case assessment. Maybe penis people who always feels like girls could share a bedroom with girls. Maybe some schools would include penis people who felt like girls on Thursdays and Fridays - if the trip was Thu-Fri.

And there would be no pressure on any other parents and no issue with parents who didn’t speak English very well.

I0NA · 31/01/2022 19:01

@NecessaryScene

I wonder if the school is allowing other mixed sex groups to share a room? If not why not?

If the policy is that only "trans" males get to do this, what heterosexual teenage boy wouldn't be tempted to claim to be "trans" if it meant they got to sleep with teenage girls on trips?

That would be discrimination on the basis of gender identity . Of course that’s not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act - it’s gender reassignment and as this is a child they can’t have legally changed gender.

So they are legally and biologically male. They can’t let this child share a room with girls because he has one type of gender identity and then refuse that right to another boy with a different gender identity.

So they would need to let any other children of different sexes share a room on a school trip if they wanted to eg a boyfriend and girlfriend.

However I’m sure the school must have done a detailed risk assessment which they will no doubt be happy to share with you @foodfiend. No one would overturn decades of good practice on school and other residential events without having looked into it very carefully and had proper legal advice.

And of course informed their insurers, given the complex risks involved.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 18:35

And how many parents would let their own 14yo attend a mixed-sex sleepover at a friend's house

There does seem to be a few 'cool' parents on this thread.

LarissaFeodorovna · 31/01/2022 18:34

If anyone is in any doubts as to what can happen when nice, well-brought-up teenagers are inadequately supervised, the many appalling stories that surfaced earlier in 2021 via the website Everyone's Invited might help concentrate your minds.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/everyones-invited-school-sex-education-rape-culture-b924897.html

LarissaFeodorovna · 31/01/2022 18:27

@Goatsaregreat

Well done foodfiend. You have the support of the vast majority of parents who expect the safety and right to privacy of girls (and boys) to be prioritised over the demands of self interested adults insisting on unwilling children being forced to undress / shower / sleep in front of those with no respect for boundaries. (there's a quicker way of saying it but it will likely get deleted given the interest some have in these discussions about children)
Yes, thanks for the update, foodfiend. I look forward to hearing the school's response.

The amount of obfuscation on this thread is baffling - how many parents would be willing to host a mixed-sex sleepover of other people's 14yo children without taking steps to ensure that boys and girls were accommodated separately? And presumably you would also make very sure that all the parents were aware of and happy with the arrangements? The potential fall-out in a friendship group if there was a pregnancy and/or sexual incident at an inadequately-supervised sleepover in a private house really doesn't bear thinking about.

And how many parents would let their own 14yo attend a mixed-sex sleepover at a friend's house (bearing in mind you don't generally know secondary school friends or their parents that well) without making any enquiries as to the planned sleeping arrangements?

I'll bet vanishingly few parents of teens would not make any attempts to ensure that their own children and their friends were being accommodated appropriately at a house party or sleepover. Yet put trans into the equation and suddenly everybody loses their collective minds.

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 18:15

Would be worth asking for the equality impact assessment too!

They are usually eaten by the dog ir something but ya might get lucky

Goatsaregreat · 31/01/2022 18:07

Well done foodfiend. You have the support of the vast majority of parents who expect the safety and right to privacy of girls (and boys) to be prioritised over the demands of self interested adults insisting on unwilling children being forced to undress / shower / sleep in front of those with no respect for boundaries. (there's a quicker way of saying it but it will likely get deleted given the interest some have in these discussions about children)

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 18:06

Perhaps the school that pp mentioned 'was using it with no harm' is also completely unaware that it was withdrawn soon after publication too.

If I remember, when I contacted the LEA office they did not even know it was withdrawn. They went and confirmed it. It seems the CPS was not very communicative about that withdrawal.

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