School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

DD had a 12th birthday sleepover, 4 girls and 2 boys. In tents in the garden. I went down to find the boys dry humping the girls. Party over.

I'd thought they were too young, they'd all been friends for ages and there'd been no sign of any of them feeling their friendships would be/could be more than Platonic. None of the other parents had concerns for same reasons. Wrong wrong wrong.

OP google Kent County Council - looks like they took the transkit down back in 2020 after being challenged by a parent about the legality of it.

All of this confusion stems from the idea that 'getting ahead of the law' was a good thing to do. It was expected that self-id was going to be brought in and the EHRC under the direction of David Isaac, mis-represented the law and allowed public bodies to move forward. Public bodies are finding that the law does not recognise self-id, however, some are still following SW guidance or have become entrenched, I assume because they don't expect a legal challenge.

Well done Op

I agree OP that it is not necessarily safe to be honest.

We are all going to have to become accomplished liars. I suspect a family event has come up for you that means your dd will not be available for that overnight trip, oh dear what a shame. And I may back out of a toilet I've suddenly discovered is mixed sex without being labelled as such, murmuring about having forgotten my san pro oh dear what a silly.

Should women and children have to learn to be extremely good liars to be able to access society?

Not anywhere sane, no. Right side of history? Only if you're one hell of a misogynist.

This is a hobsons choice if ever there was one. If you are an employee, you also need to consider what would happen in your workplace should this get out. Trans activists frequently contact employers of who they see as transgressors.

It is easy to say when i am not facing the choice, but i think this would be a hill I would be prepared to die on. 14 year old males sharing sleeping quarters with girls is all kinds of wrong, i don't think i could stomach tacitly endorsing it. But absolutely no judgement if you make a different decision.

Hm, I agree you could have started with policy before you were personally affected, but now your DD is obviously involved and if you raise the general policy now you could be seen as "the parent who didn't want the trans child around her DD on a school trip and hid behind policy".

So I would do it step by step and first ask about the risk assessment for letting these teens bunk together. If the school haven't done a risk assessment, or you don't get a satisfactory answer to what mitigations they will have against any additional risk to your DD, that's the time to escalate to policy and legal considerations over the trip. Same as you would do for any other issue involving your own child and another child who through no fault of their own is posing some risk that you expect the school to manage properly in all the children's best interest.

Then go back to the broader aspects of their policy after the trip is over and you and DD are no longer personally involved.

Fair enough OP. Thank you for raising this issue. As you say it is NOT the children you know in question, but the precedence it sets.

Can I just say, I'm really pleased to hear that you are remaining firm on this with the school.

It's hard enough to try and advocate for female spaces. Throw in a stonewalled school, a bunch of 14 year olds and a Mimsnet thread full of debate and it becomes a big old fight to continue.

I'm glad that you are, and hope that this thread inspires and motivates others to feel confident enough to do the same

Op whereabouts in the country are you? Not to stalk you ! Just in case my child has a school trip coming up.

It is a great idea that I should check with the school how they would handle this ahead of time.

I think this is the fallout of things like Stonewall advising authorities and companies. I'm sure much of it is well-intentioned, but it is short-sighted, agenda-driven and impractical imo. We are only just having to start unpicking the real and unintended consequences of the madness.

My tween is BFFs with a tween of the opposite sex. Known each other forever. Both lovely lovely children. It is not saying that there is something bad about them when we tell them they're no longer allowed to share a room on sleepovers. It is safeguarding. And an understanding of natural, basic biology and youthful curiosity.

Genuine transphobia would be treating the transgirl differently from other males. Don't forget safeguarding is for the benefit of all the children here. Whilst the impact is obviously far worse for female children, the negative effect on the life of the transgirl should sex happen, should the transgirl impregnate a girl, would be considerable. The other males are being safeguarded from that eventuality. It is transphobic not to do the same for the transgirl. And I'd be fuming if I was their parent.

I wish this thread was in AIBU/Chat so more parents could see the deliberate disregard for safeguarding so earnestly argued by those who think they are "being kind". And see just how low the status of teenage girls is; always expected to put the needs of others first.

I think it's also okay as an individual parent to just say no. Your own safeguarding does not allow mixed sex sleeping.

I actually want that line drawn also so that my children feel free to befriend a trans child. I think 'if you're my friend you'll undress in front of me', from someone of the opposite sex, would put some children off friendship altogether. Like they're happy being friends with those of different religions, but being pressured into praying with them would be off-putting. Clear boundaries helps promote good relations.

As parents are increasingly having to challenge the removal of single sex spaces in schools that ensure safety and equality for girls (changing, sleeping, showering, sports etc) it's vital that we try as far as possible to separate out the individual child at the centre of this from the core issues.
So address the issues of:
Failure to implement safeguarding practices
Giving children the responsibility rather than the school following their legally mandated procedures for trip organisation and risk assessments
Failing to adopt a professional stance re discussions about this
Prioritising a trans policy (written by external self involved adults) over safeguarding policies

If you talk to the head as an individual parent it's usually a good idea to focus on your own DD and the concerns you have about safeguarding her while she shares a dorm with a teenage transgirl. The school should have done a full risk analysis - they may not be able to tell you all of it but you can ask if they did one and you should expect to be told about anything that concerns your DD. Remind them that you are not able to make any assumptions about whether a 14 year old is sexually active or not. It would be transphobic and homophobic to assume that a transgirl is not attracted to other girls, or that another girl might not be attracted in return. It is daft to assume that 14 year olds never engage in sexual exploration, with or without romantic attachments. One question you can ask about their risk analysis is how the school intend to make sure that there are no extra opportunities for sexual contact - such as, that the transgirl will never be left alone in the dorm with your DD - because of the danger to your DD of sexual contact with someone who as far as you are aware (and of course the school can't tell you otherwise, this is confidential information) may have a functioning set of male sexual and reproductive organs. If they can put their hands on their hearts and tell you they have things organised so this wont be a problem then fine, it's on them.

Then let the school worry about the practicalities and longer term implications of their decision.

If you are worried about the broader ethical issues, potential problems for other girls, and the educational effects of their school policies (or lack of them) it's usually better to go in as a representative of a group of parents rather than an individual parent.

Male people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory to female people than other female people, it's not a matter of identity. It isn't personal.

This is the absolute crux of the issue. Safeguarding ISN’T personal. The school have created a massive issue by making it personal.

Foodfiend, I am so sorry that you are going through this. You are doing the right thing for your child though.

I think if it was me I would offer to “educate myself” together with my DD. Read /watch videos together about what the operations actually do. About the medications they need to take - and side effects. About transitioners and de-transitioners. Read about prisons, als if transwomen should be in women’s prisons. Read the statistics (about 50% of them have a history of sexual assault). And throw some Magdalen Berns videos into the whole thing.

Above all emphasise compassion. For everyone, transwomen and women. And how sometimes there is no solution that makes everyone happy. There need to be third spaces.

You're the one who is insisting that trans people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory than cis people.

It might help you with your inability to grasp why there are safeguarding concerns if you consider that most people here don't actually think gender identity means anything at all in this context. It's about sex, not trans status. Male people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory to female people than other female people, it's not a matter of identity. It isn't personal.

Foodfiend, that is really awful, the school have behaved appallingly, caused so much damage to all concerned.

I would take this to the govenors and LA as a matter of urgency.

You have been put in a really shitty position. You either maintain safeguarding for your daughter because noone else will, and then you deal with all the fall out. But you keep you daughter safe and you dont set a dangerous precendent for others to follow.

Or, you sanction these sleeping arrangements, knowingly expose your daughter to a clear risk, and make it much harder for the next person to fight this fight.

Is there any way to get an emergency meeting with the governors/LA? Do you have any sense of where other parents are with this?

You are doing the right thing. Safe schools alliance definitely the right call for support

I'm so sorry @foodfiend - what an absolute shitshow and what an invidious position the school is putting you and your daughter in. If you haven't contacted the Safe Schools Alliance yet, I think it would be really worth you doing so.

They have some very useful resources and template letters which you can adapt.

Obviously that isn't going to help with your daughter but I'm sure she knows deep down inside that A isn't actually a girl and people can't actually change sex. If she's anything like my teenagers, she'll argue with you very defensively and then go away and think about what you've said in her own time.

Our children are being so very badly failed by this gender woo.

I’m so sorry food, the school have behaved utterly appallingly & are also clearly teaching utter nonsense (stonewall endorsed of course) to their pupils