School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

So sorry Clymene

no agreement is possible.

There are 3 possible policies here.

• Keep the male/female separation rule.
• Abandon the male/female separation rule.
• Maintain the separation rule, but make it not be male/female any more, but act as if it was.

We're all in favour of the first option, because it's been proven to work.

It seems that the TRAs don't want the second option, although it's sometimes hard to tell.

The third option which seems to be what the TRAs advocate is fundamentally nonsensical.

Much like male/female separation in sport, the only reason the policy makes sense is if you're actually separating males and females. If you're not doing that, the policy won't achieve work and can't be justified. You have to choose one of the first two options to have a policy that will stand up to legal challenge. Self-identified-gender-identity-based discrimination cannot be justified. Sex-based discrimination can be.

Jane Clare Jones just published an essay - bit heavy, but relevant bit:

If we understand that we are beings-in-the-world, and that concepts are tools that interface between us and the world, as we materially interact /with/ it, it suddenly becomes much easier to understand how concepts and the world relate to each other. (Part of the problem here is that philosophers tend to /think/ about the world, not /do/ stuff in it). This also usefully explains why the trans activist effort to efface sex and replace it with gender identity causes so many material fuck-ups. As I once said to Grace Lavery, what you are doing is taking my hammer, replacing it with a fish, and telling me I can still hit nails with it.

For TRAs the risk to biological women is acceptable so everyone is included.

Reminded me of Sophie Grace Chapell the transwoman philosopher who, despite being the father of 4 daughters, declared on radio that a spike in women being murdered would be worth it for self id to be introduced.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4353901-Radio-Scotland-Kaye-Adams?pg=2

I didn't see my new boyfriend as a predator but I was wrong and he raped me.

That's the problem with making decisions on a case by case basis - sometimes we get it wrong.

And that's why safeguarding policies must be a blanket policy - because if you make decisions on a case by case basis, you can get it wrong. Or as @Deliriumoftheendless shows, you are put in impossible situations.

The fundamental aim of schools acting in loco parentis as they are on school trips is to keep the children in their care safe. And the safest way to organise sleeping arrangements is by sex.

Well done for stepping up, absolutely the right thing to do. I fear that something awful will happen before this issue is taken more seriously. I’ve been in the awful situation of knowing someone for years before finding out they were a sexual predator, absolutely nothing about them indicated they were, nothing, I would have sworn they were really a really lovely thoughtful person until their computer was seized following a complaint from someone they’d recently befriended. The only thing about them was that they were male. The thing with safeguarding is that we never know who is risky until something awful happens. And awful things happen a lot more frequently than most people think.

TRA point of view - the teenage boy is now a girl - what is the issue? If you complain you are a bigot. No safeguarding issues here. Anything bad that happens is a 'one off' and no trans child is capable of being a 'bad actor' or acting in bad faith.

GC point of view: The trans girls is still a biological boy and we don't want biological boys sharing with biological reasons at 14 because there is risk for both parties. Actual harm and accusations of harm.

TRA: Ok well that risk is worth it.

GC: No it's not.

= no agreement is possible. It's a waste of time trying for both sides. For TRAs the risk to biological women is acceptable so everyone is included.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with

Good..I'm.glad they don't see their friends as a predetor. I'm.really happy nothing has ever happened between any of them to disrupt the friendship or give reason to be suspicious.

But safguarding applies to even the nicest people with the closest friends. Why does a male child need ti bunk up with girls to prove safety status?

Is there a certificate? Is there a stamp saying " safe" on their file?

What's the motive of placing the children in this situation?.who does it benefit? Do you get a nice little header to put on your school letter paper?

“This year’s school trip is providing a bit of a headache- we’ve got covid restrictions to take into consideration on top of Mrs Jones’ lovely son who we all think might be gay who want to share with Lily and Megan, that’s fine, they’re all friends, Quiet Paul gets bullied by the other boys so he wants to share with the girls- no one fancies him anyway and his dad is a vicar, they’ve told us he respects no sex out of wedlock so we’re good to go there. Danny the Creep wants to bunk with his girlfriend and her hot mate, if there least popular member of staff can tell his parents why we think he’s a potential rapists unlike the lovely other boys that would be great. Also can you tell his parents he has been viewing porn on his phone and touched a girl inappropriately at break while you’re at it. Hopefully even though his mum’s a lawyer they won’t see any discrimination here and we won’t get sued. Fingers crossed people! We got this!”

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together

And no teen has to be either predator or prey to do something stupid and impulsive with dire consequences during the trip, if adults are not smart enough to avoid creating extra opportunities for stupid impulsive behaviour.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with

The reality is that the school has to assume the worst case scenario given the statistical threats that male sexed students can pose to female sexed students. In this situation the views of parents and students about a particular male student are totally irrelevant.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who argues for teenage boys to share sleeping quarters with teenage girls sets off all sorts of red flags. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together will know why.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together

The reality is even as adults females sometimes don’t see their friends as predators and yet, some of those friends turn out to be absolutely predators.

The reality is that no males should ever be accommodated in with the females on a school trip.

There is also a privacy issue to deal with. Of getting dressed and undressed.

I honestly find this so scary. Its like the vax deniers, will insist the vaccines are poison, in the face of all evidence and common sense, right up until they are in intensive care.

What happens when the sixth form is invited too? Can an 17 year old trans girl share a room with your 14 year old? They are friends, so what’s the problem? Yeah I can really see you letting your DD share the room then. But hey ho let’s put our 14 year olds at risk.

What makes you think trans girls don’t fancy girls? If they fancy boys they are gay, if they fancy both they are bi.

I’m wondering how ofstead would react to that level of risk assessment “it seems to work”

By the way, this board is for discussing the impacts of other groups rights on those of females. It is a feminist board. It is not a trans board.

Safeguarding is an important process for keeping females of all ages safe and all children too. That is what is being discussed here.

You and other posters are trying to twist this to be other than it is.

So again, what exactly has happened to this male teen to make them get special treatment for the safeguarding decision for the females in this scenario.

They certainly have their own safeguarding needs, but for this purpose of safeguarding the females is what we are interested in here.

And your lack of answer is just as useful to the readers on this board as is your answer.

And that’s how most boys are seen and, crucially- how most boys are yet schools do not room opposite sex pupils together. Not because they hate boys or think they don’t exist or hate girls and think they don’t exist but because schools act in loco parentis and that means a high standard, not a relaxed, free and easy neglectful parenting style. It may even be to a standard higher than we parent our own kids.

Schools can’t put an 18 movie on for under 18s (or anything over PG for primary age children) even if at home a teacher would let their 15 year old view an older rated movie.

In what sense is a trans boy any different from any other boy? Can they be attracted to girls? Can girls be attracted to them? Are they able to impregnate a girl? These are some of the reasons we separate opposite sex kids. However a child identifies does not alter that.
Use their new name, let them dress in skirts, grow their hair, call them “she” by all means- but none of that can prevent two 14 year old finding themselves with a baby they didn’t plan on.

Of course trans kids exist- this whole thread would not exist otherwise! But adults need to be responsible even if it makes them seem boring or unpopular.

No one is suggesting these kids stop being friends, or the girls shun their mate but a policy that rests on 14 year olds making the rules is unworkable and unfair. Because loopholes create problems and it’s an adult responsibility to close those loop holes. And opposite sex bedroom sharing, which is what this is no matter how much you want to believe TWAW is fraught with problems down the line and if you think this is about prejudice towards a trans child you are blinded by your own belief system.

Past experience suggests this is a mistake.

Our school has a similar policy, it seems to work on the handful of occasions it’s been used. There’s no question of a trans pupil going in a dorm type accommodation but in a situation where they can be accommodated with one or two friends then they will be, as long as their friends and the parents are in agreement about it.

Do you do a risk assessment? "It seems to work" isn't exactly a guarantee.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

Lovely. No-one who a girl is "happy to spend time and share a space with" has ever hurt her or got her pregnant.

So what do you say when it's what you would call a "boy"?

The reality is that students don’t see this boy as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

Are you letting "boys" in as well as "trans girls" with this argument, or are you discriminating against the boys? If so, how do you justify the discrimination?

Would you let girls and boys share in general if everyone was ok with it?

Oh fgs they are teenagers!!! There are lots of things that they won’t see the inherent risk in because the are fucking 14 years old!! It is adults job to protect them because as yet they don’t have the life experience to protect themselves

A trans girl is a teenage boy with a functioning cock & libido. We don’t put teenage boys however they present and however much the girls like them overnight in rooms with teenage girls because of the risk of sexual activity

I can’t believe this has to be spelt out in words of one syllable

Our school has a similar policy, it seems to work on the handful of occasions it’s been used. There’s no question of a trans pupil going in a dorm type accommodation but in a situation where they can be accommodated with one or two friends then they will be, as long as their friends and the parents are in agreement about it.
The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

Enough with the tropes from the TRA checklist.