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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

740 replies

foodfiend · 24/01/2022 09:18

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

OP posts:
Isaw3ships · 29/01/2022 08:57

This thread is why schools look at it on a case by case basis. Not scaremongering with the what ifs but actually dealing with the trans child, the friends and the parents involved.

334bu · 29/01/2022 08:42

Many of these transgender inclusion policies have had input from dubious people, probably most egregious was the Scottish Prisons' policy, where one of the contributors from the Prison Service was later imprisoned for possession of images of children being raped and sexually abused.

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/01/2022 08:19

Hasn't this been a fascinating thread for demonstrating how those most entrenched in gender ideology simply can't answer questions about safeguarding at all? It's as if they simply don't understand the concept, or don't want to admit any risks. They want trans status to give instant absolution for all past and future sins – even when it can't be anything but an assertion in the first place. Terrifying

Uts never acknowledged either that one of the people who influenced the trans inclusion policies that SW train schools in, was in fact investigated and found to be not capable and incompetent re safeguarding.

There'd 80 pages of veritas investigation saying that.

So we really would indeed like an answer as to how a policy written by someone who doesn't understand safeguarding and who has extremely unsavoury connections , a father in prison.for sex offences against a child and married to a man who openly posted his sexual fantasies involving children on twitter, can possibly be deemed unproblematic.

fenulla · 29/01/2022 08:18

Yes mrsgrumpytrousers it IS terrifying

fenulla · 29/01/2022 08:17

they want trans status to give instant absolution

MsGrumpytrousers · 29/01/2022 00:29

Hasn't this been a fascinating thread for demonstrating how those most entrenched in gender ideology simply can't answer questions about safeguarding at all? It's as if they simply don't understand the concept, or don't want to admit any risks. They want trans status to give instant absolution for all past and future sins – even when it can't be anything but an assertion in the first place. Terrifying.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/01/2022 22:23

And now, how that applies to schools.

An article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:

extract
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

www.excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/01/2022 21:51

I have been trying to find a less emotionally charged way of explaining the issue to your daughter and others. This may or may not serve.

There are various treatments, medications and screening techniques that pose significant danger to fetal development. As a result, females of childbearing age are asked to take pregnancy tests before healthcare staff proceed with treatment.

It sometimes comes up on mumsnet that a woman is very frustrated that she had to take a pregnancy test, because she couldn't possibly be pregnant; perhaps she's had a hysterectomy, gave birth the previous day or is 73 years old. The poster says that surely healthcare staff could use personal discretion.

The problem is, this is a nation of over 60 million, half of those female, and most of whom will reach adulthood, have the capacity to become pregnant, and need medical treatment between menarche and menopause. The NHS employs thousands of HCPs. The moment you remove this blanket policy, and place it in the hands of individual employees to get it right with every patient they see, you guarantee that a woman who could be pregnant won't be asked to test her urine.

The easy cases will remain easy: the women who have had complete hysterectomies, gave birth the previous day or are 73 years old.

But what about the edge cases?
Like 12 year old girls who haven't even had their first period yet? However, you ovulate before you menstruate. You can get pregnant without having ever menstruated, if you get pregnant during your first cycle. Approximately 1 in 10 girls is sexually abused before her 18th birthday. So unfortunately the possibility exists that one of the 12 year old patients you'll be treating during your career is being sexually abused, and is in the early stages of pregnancy. You can't know which one.

Women experiencing regular periods, on their period right now, can't be pregnant, right? Wrong. Some women continue to experience break-through bleeding on a regular cycle during pregnancy. You cannot know which one isn't actually having a genuine period.

Your next patient is Sandy. Sandy has had three failed IVF cycles and thinks it's an insult to be asked to wee on a pregnancy stick. However, a teeny, tiny number of women will get pregnant naturally after IVF treatment. If 1 in 10,000 women get pregnant naturally after IVF treatment, that's like winning the lottery. No point hoping for it as an individual. But the people at the National Lottery meet lottery winners every week. So do healthcare staff, because thousands of people visit the hospital every week, too. The woman unknowingly pregnant with a miracle pregnancy, will walk through the doors along with 9,999 women who were right when they said they couldn't be pregnant.

Next you see Diane. Due to a clerical error, it says on her records that she's had a hysterectomy to deal with unexplained bleeding, so you don't ask her to test her urine. Actually, her records are supposed to say she's had a hysteroscopy which is when someone has a look inside a uterus to identify the cause of unexplained bleeding. Her uterus is most definitely still there!

Emma comes in. She assures you she hasn't had sex in the last year. What she doesn't know, or is unwilling to accept, is that she had her drink spiked at a house party last month and she was raped while unconscious.

Liz comes in. She's 51 and thinks she's moved out of perimenopause and into menopause. She tells you she's not had a period for seven months, and before that they were extremely irregular. This is true. But she ovulated four weeks ago and she is now in the early stages of pregnancy.

And so on.

These seemingly unlikely edge cases are why we have blanket policies. If it is left up to personal discretion, someone, somewhere will make the wrong decision, with lifechanging consequences.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 28/01/2022 19:38

Ah yes, Akela, cubs. I'd forgotten about that

GAHgamel · 28/01/2022 19:18

@foodfiend

Thanks so much to all the thoughtful posters who've engaged here - I really do appreciate it. Special thanks to *@Akela64* - that is an excellent list of points to raise.
As someone who used to teach, albeit quite some time ago, *@Akela64*'s post reads very much like someone who has had to do these kind of risk assessments for residential trips. Given the username, that's probably not that surprising.
AKASammyScrounge · 28/01/2022 18:34

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I'd be asking about changing and showering facilities personally. In a way sleeping is red herring if the pupil is allowed full access to the girls showers (and these aren't individual lockable cubicles)
I think that's right. Showers need to be single sex. End of.
foodfiend · 28/01/2022 18:16

Thanks so much to all the thoughtful posters who've engaged here - I really do appreciate it. Special thanks to @Akela64 - that is an excellent list of points to raise.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 28/01/2022 18:15

I have noticed that when realistic questions are asked about how this will work and how the ramifications of implementing this policy, posters disappear.

Not one has yet answered

  • how this male child has changed so that for safeguarding purposes they are no longer to be treated as male?
  • what studies and statistics are there to prove that these transitioned males are in anyway safer than other males?

-how many female students are acceptable collateral damage in the name of this 'progress'?

  • what does a 14 year old girl do in a situation where they get to the room and discover that they are actually NOT ok with the arrangement anymore, but because a group of teachers and parents have decided that it is 'kind' and 'nice' that they have agreed to share a space with a male, that 14 year old girl feels they cannot change their mind?
  • where does a 14 year old girl go if the worst scenario does happen (and we hope that it doesn't ever happen) and they feel that they have to 'live' with their decision and stay in the same room as their abuser. Because, they agreed to this arrangement?

I look forward to one of those posters who have been so vocal on supporting this arrangement answering these questions. Because, to them I have the wrong end of the stick, and am doing this out of fear and hate, and ignorance.

Please answer the questions to support why this arrangement is acceptable.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/01/2022 17:58

Further, I question Isaw3ships' implication that experiencing gender dysphoria and being attracted to the opposite sex are mutually exclusive.

Trans people, including adult transwomen, may be solely attracted to the same sex, the opposite sex, and both sexes.

A 14 year old male teenager may be simultaneously genuine when identifying as trans and excited about the romantic possibilities of sharing a room overnight with a female best friend.

It is also quite possible in such situations that the female best friend may be totally unaware that her male best friend (trans or not) has a crush on her, and is unaware that the male teenager has hopes in that direction.

This is why we have single sex separation.

Clymene · 28/01/2022 17:10

@Theeyeballsinthesky

There’s nothing unusual about this case though, that’s the point, this is everyday safeguarding stuff about when it is and is not appropriate for opposite sex children to share rooms

A teenage boy (who May or May not present as female remembering that presents as female isn’t an actual requirement to be trans) wants to share a room with 2 teenage girls

Thete is no reason to treat them any differently to any other teenage boy because that is what they are

And this is what the Equality Act mandates too. It's discriminatory to treat them any differently to any other teenage boy.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/01/2022 16:33

@Isaw3ships

‘What’s to stop boys ID’ing as female so as to share rooms with their GFs on school trips? My BF when I was 15 would have done that, I am sure.’

You honest to god believe that a straight boy would pretend to be trans to share a room with his girlfriend on a school trip? And that no-one else would pick up on that?
You do realise that teens can have sex with each other outside of sharing a room in a school trip??

Your argument relies on the assumption that to any rational person, the social stigma of being known as trans would outweigh the benefit of having the opportunity to have sex with your girlfriend on a school trip.
  1. This may have been the case once. Is it always going to be the case? I was under the impression we were putting a lot of work into accepting trans people in 21st century Britain.

  2. Are teenagers people who always make rational decisions and accurately assess longterm consequences?

Teenagers impulsively risk life and limb jumping off cliffs and taking drugs. They jeopardise their longterm futures all the time for the sake of short-term benefits, never mind their current social lives!

Helleofabore · 28/01/2022 16:03

@Isaw3ships

‘In this case the kids wanted to share but 2 parents didn’t want them to. End of.

It is so clear isn’t it. ‘

Exactly! It really is. And if the OP wants to hide her ‘discomfort’ or whatever it is under the guise of standing up for those to come then she’s absolutely free to.
Just as the school are free to take unusual situations like this on a case by case basis, and give parents the option to have a say on anything to do with their own child.

Nice selective answering - yet again.

Here it is again though.

(says ships)

The kids wanted to share and the parents didn’t want them to….

Now put the reality in.

The kids, male and female, wanted to share and the parents didn’t want them to…

Why are you making out that the parents are unreasonable and trying to shame this mother who is actually being the responsible one?

You keep conveniently avoiding answering the question.

Would you let any male and female share a room on a school trip?

Why is this male special? What exactly is different with this male’s body to any other males body?

We can keep repeating the questions if you like.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 28/01/2022 15:59

Isaw3ships. I hope to god you're not a teacher. What a fucking disaster that would be if you were. No clue about safeguarding at all.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 28/01/2022 15:59

Thete is no reason to treat them any differently to any other teenage boy because that is what they are

/// Absolutely this. Ships, what are your thoughts? Or are you just here to poke about?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 28/01/2022 15:57

I work in a school on an ad hoc casual basis and am DBS checked. Based on the fact - y'know, this case by case thing - that I'm well known to the school, have never harmed a child, have kids of my own and get on well with the students I interact with and I understand safeguarding surely there's no need to renew my DBS when it expires? I'm no risk?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 28/01/2022 15:55

There’s nothing unusual about this case though, that’s the point, this is everyday safeguarding stuff about when it is and is not appropriate for opposite sex children to share rooms

A teenage boy (who May or May not present as female remembering that presents as female isn’t an actual requirement to be trans) wants to share a room with 2 teenage girls

Thete is no reason to treat them any differently to any other teenage boy because that is what they are

NecessaryScene · 28/01/2022 15:53

Just as the school are free to take unusual situations like this on a case by case basis, and give parents the option to have a say on anything to do with their own child.

Males wanting to sleep with females is hardly an unusual situation.

And are they doing it case-by-case or not? Should they or should they not be allowing all males to do so on a case-by-case basis? I think you've been asked this a few times.

Isaw3ships · 28/01/2022 15:48

‘In this case the kids wanted to share but 2 parents didn’t want them to. End of.

It is so clear isn’t it. ‘

Exactly! It really is. And if the OP wants to hide her ‘discomfort’ or whatever it is under the guise of standing up for those to come then she’s absolutely free to.
Just as the school are free to take unusual situations like this on a case by case basis, and give parents the option to have a say on anything to do with their own child.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 28/01/2022 15:45

@Isaw3ships

‘the position is that the school have told the children that I've vetoed the arrangement. Great.”

Well,You have haven’t you? Which it what you want - for your child not to share with this other child.

‘School policy is not to have a policy, and to treat every case individually, and say that they're following local authority advice. ‘

Following the local authority advice is a policy. Why wouldn’t they treat each case individually? They ask the kids, and they ask the parents. In this case the kids wanted to share but 2 parents didn’t want them to. End of.

Oh good lord. Because nothing could go wrong with this approach Confused