Dad taking daughters into the ladies or disabled toilets

Women quite rightly don't want men to appropriate women's spaces and services. Equally disabled people don't want able bodied people to appropriate their spaces and services.

Why should a disabled person be forced to wait outside their own hard won space? Because someone isn't quite comfortable with the other option and rather than campaign for an additional space they want to appropriate a more venerable groups space? That argument sounds familiar......

Do not use the disabled toilet if you can physically access the other toilets because some disabled people cannot physically access other toilets.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38663322

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/disability-hate-crime/

It’s pretty hateful to leave a vulnerable person to soil themselves in public while you use their services while you have your own.

Some arguments I've seen (not just on this thread) are that it could be dangerous for a man to be in a female toilet because "god knows what his motives are", so then wouldn't it be even more dangerous to take a little girl into the mens loos? If it were me, I would probably use the disabled loos as quickly as possible as long as no one else was waiting for them.

Some women are just as disgusting or worse than men when going to the toilet. I wouldn’t want my dds to see men standing at the urinals.

This seems to be a new thing which is happening more frequently. And is supposed to be seen and lauded by women everywhere as an example of great parenting- man decides that his daughters are more important and their need more important than everyone else, because a man is looking after his kids and has decided this is more appropriate. Go places with family toilets. Or as others have said, do something about improving the conditions in male toilets. I assume there are not penises flying gaily around- men don't show each other so the risk is low of seeing one in its natural state, and given that male toddlers and you d children are taken there to sit with no complaints, I'm assuming the condition isnt that dire- or are dads happy for boy young children to sit on a seat full of feaces and urine? I'd assume I parent would want a child of either sex in that position- fathers of girls don't win there. There should be greater access to and more parents toilets, not an assumption that men can use the women because they've decided it's ok and everyone else should to.

Many baby changing rooms also have toilets in them, so I’d tell him to use those first, and if there’s not one available, to use the disabled toilet. No way would I want him to use the womens toilet.

As for Blueberry and "it's never been the case that female toilets are sacrocant [sic] female-only spaces" - really? Workmen and cleaners can come in so therefore it's not a female-only space? The logic is baffling but not surprising in this case

There are a lot of "well, I don't mind"s and a fair few "don't be ridiculous"s on this thread.

There seem to be many women who think "well I don't mind so you shouldn't".

It's those people I'm addressing. Like TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse. for example .

No hes an adult man so use mens. I would never take my son into the mens and think it's ok? !

Well, what if one five year old is traumatised by seeing penises in the men's? I mean there is a key difference which is that in the ladies no-one actually has their genitals out where they can be seen by all and sundry. I know this is a hot button topic in here but OP, not everyone is on the same side.

Turquoise, I don't think anyone is saying they're going to give away any rights of all women, at least I haven't seen anyone say that, they're just answering the question of "would you mind" and their opinion is that they wouldn't.

I really, really wish those saying "I wouldn't mind" would just think for a second. If even one woman would mind, who the hell do you think you are giving away her right to mind?

In addition, if you don't mind a man bringing his children in, do you mind a man accompanying his wife, or a man following his wife to make sure she doesn't get out of his sight or a man following another woman to intimidate her ........

Just try to engage your brains. A woman might have a very good reason to want to escape into a single sex loo in a busy place. Just because you only know "nice" men doesn't mean every man is nice.

As pointed out in this thread, children can use any toilet, disabled people can only use one. There is usually only one disabled toilet, and that toilet is also a baby changing facility, a gender neutral toilet and now a toilet for young children?

Disabled people are legally entitled to have access to facilities to the same standard as non-disabled people. The most vulnerable people who have no other choice now must wait for someone to change their baby, and someone who is gender neutral and now a family with young children?

Disabled people shouldn’t have to share the only physically accessible space they have with a parade of people who simply prefer the disabled space to the other options they can physically access. It’s like the wheelchair vs the pram on the bus all over again. The pram lost.

Men don’t belong in the women’s toilets. Abel bodied people don’t belong is the disabled toilet. I’m disabled and I don’t even use the disabled toilets because I can physically access the other facilities.

If people are finding that the current facilities does not meet their needs, then they should campaign for additional facilities. They should not use facilities that have been designated and designed for disabled people. There is a reason the disabled toilet is larger than a typical cubical and its not so you can fit an entire family in there.

He should use the family toilet or the disabled toilet. It’s inappropriate for a man to be in the women’s toilet.

I think what this shows is that men need to be responsible for more parenting, including of their daughters. Then the problem should naturally resolve itself.

If it was a more usual occurrence for men to have to take little children into the men's toilets, including their daughters, then other men would become more accustomed to children being in there and to behaving appropriately, including keeping the facilities clean for children to use. Greater pressure might also be put on those designing men's toilets to ensure the urinals are out of sight and that there is an appropriate level of privacy.

I wouldn't mind a man doing this either.

Artichokeleaves

This makes no sense.

He's unwilling to expose his little girls to a room where male people are toileting, because he's uncomfortable about this.

And his solution to this is to be a male person in a room where female people are toileting. But that's ok because he's the male person. How many male people need to be in the female loos before he finds that inappropriate too? Bearing in mind that it's not at all unusual for male people to use cubicles to pee with the door open in mixed sex spaces.

Yes, we need third spaces which provides family access like this as well as providing for all other people who don't need a single sex space.

OP

This comment, and the one earlier about setting a really bad example to his daughters about women's boundaries have hit home for me, and absolutely made me realise the ridiculousness of the situation. There really isn't a reason for men to be in the ladies toilets.

I will suggest he starts carrying anti-bac wipes with him and carries on going in the mens.

==============

So basically, the Dad here is not actually willing to do the work of parenting. He's not willing to plan ahead and check out what facilities there will be and to choose to take his daughters to places with adequate toilets. Further, he's unable to work out for himself that if the Gents is messy, he needs to be prepared to clean it up for his daughters' sake. He shouldn't need you to 'suggest' that he carry wipes with him, he should have worked that out for himself. Another example of how so many men dodge the mental load of being a parent.

No, no, no - he wants it all handed to him on a plate by other people, the people he thinks exist to meet his needs - women. Be that by them pointing out the obvious suggesting what he should do, or by relinquishing their single-sex space to a member of the opposite sex because he wants it.

Instead of being prepared to make those male facilities work by arming himself with wipes etc., he chooses to just take the 'too difficult, I'll just uses the Ladies and to hell with what the women think about me invading their space' route. What a prince.

That should say "free sanitary products in loos" . Blast it. My sloganeering needs more work.

I would say to use the disabled toilets, if I had a daughter 4 or 5 I wouldn’t want them in men’s toilets potentially seeing men standing peeing

We live in a world where we are still trying to get sanitary products for a basic physiological need by campaigning for it. Some might not get it for another 100 years.

We are leading and showing the way. Men follow the female lead : fight for usable loos!

I love my sloganeering if I do say so myself.

there were two men in there, and no one batted an eyelid, in fact several women were even chatting and joking with them. They were cleaners. It is normal and commonplace for male cleaners and maintenance staff to be in women's loos

I avoid toilets when it says male cleaners are in there

I'm alright Jack.

Men need to make their loos child friendly. Not think "yours is already child friendly. I'll just nip in. Never mind me. Nothing to see here. And if you do mind I'll just parade my kid as a cute human shield! See nice big eyes. you can't resist that surely you nice, caring, women"

Males over the age of 8 need to stop thinking women's spaces are up for grabs if they can make up a nice sounding excuse!

there were two men in there, and no one batted an eyelid, in fact several women were even chatting and joking with them. They were cleaners. It is normal and commonplace for male cleaners and maintenance staff to be in women's loos

To start there is normally a sign up if male cleaners are present. So you can use another/wait if it bothers you.

Secondly they are employees. Who will be DBS checked etc.

Big difference to men who just expect women to accept them in their spaces because thy want to use it and so do.

To all the people here saying the answer is for the dad to campaign for family toilets/unisex toilets/cleaner men's facilities - I'm just wondering where exactly are his daughters supposed to wee while he's campaigning? "Start a campaign" is not exactly a solution when you're on a day out and your DD is bursting to go right now is it?

I honestly wonder what world you lot live in sometimes. I was in a women's toilet at a service station yesterday, there were two men in there, and no one batted an eyelid, in fact several women were even chatting and joking with them. They were cleaners. It is normal and commonplace for male cleaners and maintenance staff to be in women's loos. It's also perfectly normal and common for parents to accompany small children of the opposite sex in the loos, and for carers of the opposite sex to help people out in toilets and changing rooms. As long as it's obvious what they're doing in there, I've never in my life encountered anyone who minded a bit or thought it was at all unusual. I swear everyone here must be using loos in some GC parallel dimension or something because it's never been the case that female toilets are sacrocant female-only spaces that never a male may cross the threshold in any circumstances.

Seriously, imagine being so rigid in your ideology you'd refuse to allow a dad to help his daughter have a wee. It's not for "his convenience" as someone here said, it's for her. Do you want to revert to a world that assumes fathers can't or won't care for their young children on their own? What messages about gender does that send to your kids?

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I don't walk round the communal areas with my hoo-haa uncovered so he won't see anything that he wouldn't see if we met in the shop aisles or out on the pavement. I hope he doesn't pee on the seat though