Female academic fired for loudness

That's what I think too, FatLabrador. In general, I think it's been shown that judgements made by employment tribunals are generally about not employers not following procedures, not about the actual rights or wrongs of their decision.

It's just shocking to me that someone be sacked so easily after 30 years and at an age so close to retirement. They could have found her an alternative role for a few years, and then pushed her to retire so it doesn't blemish her academic record when she leaves, I'm sure that is what most companies would try to do for a long standing employee. If the ruling is mainly based on the Uni not having followed the process then good. I don't think you can say being Jewish makes you loud! But if someone is good enough for 30 years you don't suddenly sling them out without so much as a Thank You Ma'am. They should at least have given her very clear warnings and support from HR to make sure she understands the serious potential of losing her job.

There is clearly more to this than what has been reported. The university have said they will appeal because the unfair dismissal related to claims over her treatment of two PhD students. Dr Plaut herself has said that the university wanted to get rid of her for many years but I would be astonished if all her male colleagues in the department had substantially better records in terms of research outputs and successful PhD completions. How did the complaints about the way she spoke get included in the evidence presented to the tribunal if there were so many other indicators or poor performance?

Moving away from this individual case to women's experiences more generally, women's voices are scrutinised in a way that men's are not. A good example of this is the criticism faced by Alex Scott or Karen Carney, the ex footballers turned pundits. Almost every male football pundit has a regional accent, but do they get the level of comments about their voices? They do not.

The actor Brian Blessed has made money from appearing in comedy shows and advertisements featuring his loud voice. I can't think of a female equivalent.

Speaking volume can be cultural and gendered (the expectation that women will talk in quietly modulated tones). That's why it is something we should be aware of as women and show solidarity with other women who don't fit in with stereotypes about the way they should speak.

I wouldn't be able to stay in a role where I had a very loud colleague. Add into that, that she seems to have a very combative style and "I can't help it" seems to be a weak defence.

There are some people who make the working environment untenable for their colleagues. When one person makes it pretty impossible for anyone else to work, it has to be addressed, whatever their sex/ehtnicity/natural style.

for the hour I'm visiting someone in hospital I would have to concentrate very, very hard to keep my voice within an expected parameter. Which is fine for the hour I'm making small talk in a hospital
To do it for 7 hours in an office when I'm dealing with work, stress, motivating others - that would be intolerable. It would take up so much of my head space that I wouldn't be able to communicate properly and therefore do my job.

I'm sorry @EmmaH2022, but the sound of your voice would take up so much of my headspace that I wouldn't be able to do my job. I get that it's something you don't seem to be able to control, but I (and I'm guessing others) wouldn't be able to control our reaction either.

It's shit all round really.

It sounds like she is doing womaning all wrong. With the same research output but with fawning over the mens, talking breathlessly, giggling and bringing cakes to work you bet there would not be a problem. And you can bet that male colleagues have similar or worse outputs and are not at risk of losing their jobs.

My colleague is loud. My office shares a wall with a meeting room that he uses frequently and often on speakerphone or zoom with the volume up. It sounds like he’s sitting next to me.

I got told it was my problem.

I can't comment on her performance in research as I was only there for my BSc.

Never underestimate how important one's research is to one's standing in an academic department. I had a look at some other roughly equivalent academics there, and came up with the following examples:

An established professor with 123 publications in 15 years.
A recently-appointed professor with 29 publications in six years.

So, those are the kind of numbers you should be aiming at; Plaut's 65 in 30 years seems rather low by comparison. It is, of course, impossible to make a direct comparison, as quality of research, and disciplinary context matter as well, but suggests a very clear reason why the University of Exeter might not have been terribly willing to retain Plaut's services.

I was taught by Dr Plaut when I was a student at Exeter and I didn't find her voice to be too loud or grating. She spoke clearly and had a no-nonsense demeanour. She didn't present in a particularly feminine way so I suspect being a gender non-conforming female in an entirely male department with mostly male students (my year had about 60 students and 8 of them were female, down to 6 by graduation) was not easy for her. I know she wasn't a popular lecturer, but not for any good reason as far as I could see. I found her to be a good lecturer. I can't comment on her performance in research as I was only there for my BSc.

I'm glad she won the case, but I'm sorry this happened to her. I tried to continue my academic career in Physics but I found it impossible. I don't know how much was because I was female and how much was that I made a poor choice of PhD supervisor, but I do think sexism played a big part. From what I've seen, things haven't improved much, if any, for women in Physics since my day.

[quote GoGoGretaDoll]@EmmaH2022 for the hour I'm visiting someone in hospital I would have to concentrate very, very hard to keep my voice within an expected parameter. Which is fine for the hour I'm making small talk in a hospital. (Although if anyone said anything funny and I laughed, that would wake someone under general anaesthetic, I'm afraid.)

To do it for 7 hours in an office when I'm dealing with work, stress, motivating others - that would be intolerable. It would take up so much of my head space that I wouldn't be able to communicate properly and therefore do my job. [/quote]
Have you had your hearing checked?

A lot of loud people have blocked ears, might be worth investigating if you can ever find a doctor to see you?

@EmmaH2022 for the hour I'm visiting someone in hospital I would have to concentrate very, very hard to keep my voice within an expected parameter. Which is fine for the hour I'm making small talk in a hospital. (Although if anyone said anything funny and I laughed, that would wake someone under general anaesthetic, I'm afraid.)

To do it for 7 hours in an office when I'm dealing with work, stress, motivating others - that would be intolerable. It would take up so much of my head space that I wouldn't be able to communicate properly and therefore do my job.

It could be sexist standards. I don’t doubt they exist. But I wonder if this is more about changing standards. This woman has been in position for more than two decades, I’m sure she hasn’t just started shouting. Moser likely she used to get away with things too, but there is now less of a culture of accepting senior academics can do as they please.

There is also the factor of when you become a liability as an academic. Universities are willing to overlook a lot if you are producing world-ranking research, winning grants, or otherwise benefitting the university. If you stop performing, the administration is less likely to ignore the problems you might be causing.

In Plaut's case, she had been suspended twice in the past, and her publication record is hardly stellar (according to ResearchGate she has had 65 papers published in the 29 years, but only ten in the last ten years, of which she was lead author on only two). Meanwhile, given when she joined the department, she is probably on a very good remuneration, which may now be perceived as disproportionate to the value she is delivering to the department.

My suspicion, reading between the lines, is that Plaut won the the unfair dismissal claim because, whilst there may have been adequate grounds for dismissal, the university basically had decided that they wanted to get rid of her, and was looking for the opportunity to fast track her out of her department; this is, of course, not the correct way of dealing with staff, which does constitute unfair dismissal. But it does feel like there is a lot more going on here, which hasn't appeared in the newspapers...

Oh and how do we define shouting? The lady visiting at the hospital was stuck on shout mode so she'd bellow "HOW ARE YOU FEELING WILLIAM.?"

Full disclosure - I asked someone to leave when she was visiting Dad in hospital. I told her twice to lower her voice. Dad and other patients were wincing.

She said to me later that she couldn't help it, but she was quieter in the few minutes after I said it.

I was so relieved she didn't come to the funeral 😂

I'm very loud. It's one of the reasons I work from home, because I cba with people telling me I'm loud. It's not something I can regulate unless I really, really focus on it and I'd prefer to focus on my work (as that's what I'm getting paid for). I would find it odd to be disciplined or sacked for something I honestly can't help.

However, I never shout at people!

Loud people are unbearable. I know one that you need to think in advance where to go with her and avoid small restaurants and places of leisure. This person speaks so loud in public places and is very embarrassing.

I kNow a male who was not only not fired for sexually harassing PhD students but won an award for his research output after he was quietly put on teaching leave.

She said her heritage meant that she was naturally loud, her body language was demonstrative and her conversational style was naturally argumentative. She compared this to people of Mediterranean heritage

The race discrimination claim is based on her eastern European Jewish heritage, which she says gives her inherent characteristics (in the way she interacts with people)

Yeah and all Black people have natural rhythm but are useless at swimming and all Scottish people are prudent with money.

The report in the Sun says

The remedy judgment said it was "difficult to imagine the depth of humiliation, hurt, stress and worry" for Dr Plaut after she was suspended adding: "Every aspect of her life and future was at risk, and for no good reason, and unfairly."

I can't see anything that suggests a deeply unpleasant person. She's been working for decades.

Sounds like she lost of the sex and ethnicity basis of her claim and won because processes weren’t followed. E.g their reason for sacking her was sound but they didn’t follow the correct process perhaps in terms of notice, formal stages, meetings etc

It does sound like her behaviour was inappropriate.

Not sure if I’m a fan of automatically linking inappropriate behaviour with autism. If anything the shouting was more like to hurt the ND students anyway.

I used to switch channels when she was on. I couldn't work with that noise. I wonder what she was like an interview.

I also find the culture and heritage blaming very distasteful.

Does this mean shouting at a lower level is ok? It's an odd case!

As someone who has heard this lady, think Janice from friends x100 decibels

This isn't a feminist issue imo, she wasn't fired for being a woman, the tribunal didn't uphold any sexual discrimination elements of this case.

She shouts at people and tried to pin it on her culture and heritage, whilst also being deeply grating to listen to.

Oh yes of course they should have been @CovidCorvid but just pointing out the bar is seemingly a lot higher for men's dismissal.

Are Jewish people naturally loud?

I have a loud voice, I hate it, a couple of people have commented on it over the years, DH mentions it quite a lot! I do try and regulate it but I forget a lot of them time. It's doesn't help that I work in a school in quite a noisy environment and need to 'project' my voice a lot of the time!