Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher

@KimikosNightmare Again, I've said multiple times that I don't favour teachers talking about their pupils' appearance. So please stop claiming I support something that clearly, I have pretty major doubts about.

That has nothing to do with what I'm questioning in you and your posts. You are only focusing on that (and accusing me of having a position i patently don't hold) because it gives you an excuse to avoid engaging with (1) the fact that you said something homophobic; (2) your persistent refusal to apologise, despite being told by an actual, real lesbian that your attitude is offensive and upsetting; (3) the hypocrisy of being so eager to call out and condemn KC while being 100% unwilling to hear criticism of what you have said.

It goes all ways. If you want to dole it out, you'd better be willing to hear it. Your reaction unveils, in a very clear and disturbing way, how un-genuine your commitment to bettering society and discourse is. You won't live out those principles at all in your own life.

She has a new publisher...
wwww.theguardian.com/books/2022/feb/01/kate-clanchy-independent-publisher-some-kids-i-taught

[quote Innocenta]**@ArabellaScott* I definitely see where you're coming from! The thing is, also, I'm not someone who routinely picks up on every teeny-tiny thing that could be construed as homophobic ... But I really hate the hypocrisy of people who are so ready to criticise and call out, but refuse to reflect or consider that they might be wrong even for a moment. That's why I took issue in such a persistent way with what @KimikosNightmare said. In general, I don't actually think it's a productive way to argue, or a helpful approach, but I think how that unfolded reveals how negatively someone reacts when 'called out' (and I do think it was valid point I made, I didn't 'invent' my POV - I just wouldn't always share the thought). Yet @KimikosNightmare* hasn't drawn any insight from her own reaction, as far as I can see. [/quote]
And you think you have "gained insight"

You think it's fine for a teacher to talk publicly about a pupil in that way.

Do you serioulsy think that there won't be girls wondering if they were meant?

All the posturing on here usually about women having to meet standards of beauty/ the "male gaze"/ how unacceptable it is to comment on appearances.

I'm saying it is completely unacceptable for a teacher to comment about a female pupil having a moustache. Or that a female pupil isn't pretty.

In class, to the student - sure.

In writing where the student is named or could be identified? Arguably.

Under any circumstances, in a book, where the student cannot be identified? Um - why? Why would that be unacceptable?

We all know how people actually look, there is no moral high ground in pretending we don't.

Sorry about fucking up the bold!

@ArabellaScott I definitely see where you're coming from! The thing is, also, I'm not someone who routinely picks up on every teeny-tiny thing that could be construed as homophobic ... But I really hate the hypocrisy of people who are so ready to criticise and call out, but refuse to reflect or consider that they might be wrong even for a moment. That's why I took issue in such a persistent way with what @KimikosNightmare said. In general, I don't actually think it's a productive way to argue, or a helpful approach, but I think how that unfolded reveals how negatively someone reacts when 'called out' (and I do think it was valid point I made, I didn't 'invent' my POV - I just wouldn't always share the thought). Yet @KimikosNightmare hasn't drawn any insight from her own reaction, as far as I can see.

@KimikosNightmare I've explicitly said I'm not in favour of teachers commenting on the appearance of their pupils.

But no, I don't agree that 'butch' is uniquely dreadful - the fact that you think it is, is your homophobia speaking. Something you're desperate to disclaim.

The only person spinning anything is you.

[quote Innocenta]@KimikosNightmare I see you're still failing to take accountability for making a homophobic comment. [/quote]
Because I didn't. I read "butch" as being masculine looking - not suitably feminine.

I'm not apologising for your spin- especially when you can't bring yourself to make any criticism of what an awful comment it was for Clanchy to make about a female pupil.

@KimikosNightmare I see you're still failing to take accountability for making a homophobic comment.

[quote Innocenta]@KimikosNightmare I'm not particularly in favour of teachers commenting on the appearance of their pupils (pupils of either sex), but I also give credence and attention to the lived experience of her actual pupils.

Why are you deflecting from being called out on your homophobic comment? Why are you okay with calling out other people, but unable to acknowledge it and apologise when you've said something offensive yourself?

Things to reflect on. [/quote]
Well there's plenty of deflection going on here.

"Butch" was part of the whole comment made by Clanchy. You have chosen to defend her and attack me.

I quoted what she said. You have decided it was homophobic, whilst ignoring the whole phrase and context. In the context I took it to mean "looks masculine" - not acceptably feminine given the reference to moustache.

I also give credence and attention to the lived experience of her actual pupils

The lived experience here being this girl's teacher saying in print that the girl in question didn't look acceptably feminine.

@KimikosNightmare I'm not particularly in favour of teachers commenting on the appearance of their pupils (pupils of either sex), but I also give credence and attention to the lived experience of her actual pupils.

Why are you deflecting from being called out on your homophobic comment? Why are you okay with calling out other people, but unable to acknowledge it and apologise when you've said something offensive yourself?

Things to reflect on.

@EishetChayil It absolutely is not immaterial. Men are lauded for offensive literature all the time.

[quote Innocenta]@KimikosNightmare Nope, it's not a straw man. You just don't like to be called on it when you say something offensive. [/quote]
Nonsense. But I see you are happy for a teacher to comment on a female pupil having a moustache.

Whether she's a woman or not is immaterial.

It boils down to the fact that she used racist, classist, fatphobic, anti-Semitic language to describe minors, and denied it when called out. The fact that her publisher did not see her language as a problem until it was pointed out speaks to a wider issue in the industry.

@KimikosNightmare Nope, it's not a straw man. You just don't like to be called on it when you say something offensive.

[quote Innocenta]@KimikosNightmare You are saying that 'butch' is a fundamentally pejorative adjective; that is unequivocally a homophobic position. [/quote]
No. I'm not saying that. That's a complete straw man.

I'm saying it is completely unacceptable for a teacher to comment about a female pupil having a moustache. Or that a female pupil isn't pretty.

@KimikosNightmare You are saying that 'butch' is a fundamentally pejorative adjective; that is unequivocally a homophobic position.

Perhaps you could answer why it's acceptable for a teacher to write so disparagingly about female pupils' appearance?

[quote Innocenta]@KimikosNightmare Why do you think looking butch is a bad thing? You need to do some unpacking yourself, in making that assumption, because as a lesbian I find it pretty damn offensive.[/quote]
And mentioning the girl's moustache? What point does that serve?

You are defending a teacher talking about a female pupil's moustache. This isn't the situation of an adult woman choosing a butch style.

Oops, cross-posted.

I did actually. I suggested " tell me your story".

No, I mean the questions I have just repeated in my post: why is it racist to notice ethnicity, [if it is not loaded with judgement or derogatory associations]? And b) if you are writing about your own racism, how do you do that without invoking racist tropes?

a) why is it racist to notice ethnicity?

That has been explained but here's the short version.

It's racist if it's not relevant to the situation- for example what is a "Cypriot bosom"?

It's racist to mention it using terms like chocolate skin, comparing skull sizes and shapes

It's racist when in the case of the boy who wasn't Jewish to persist with your assumptions that he must be Jewish.