Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher

558 replies

ArabellaScott · 21/01/2022 14:23

Picador are unpublishing - ceasing to distribute - all of Clanchy's books. The article says 'by mutual consent', but it's not a good thing to hear a poet/author being 'cancelled'.

Literature/poetry is not in a healthy state right now.

unherd.com/thepost/picador-cancels-poet-kate-clanchys-books/

In case you missed the brouhaha - Article from last year:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58151144

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
QueenPeony · 02/02/2022 12:37

If you think there's something wrong with describing someone using a gay or lesbian term, then you are assigning pejorative meaning to the term, @QueenPeony.

OK last attempt.

I think there's something wrong (in particular contexts, including this one) with describing students from RL situations, even if anonymous, as having chocolate skin or an Ashkenazi nose or a Cypriot bosom, talking about how they're not pretty, etc.

Does that mean I think there is something wrong with any of these? Of course not. That is not the point. And you have not pulled up anyone for pointing out these other descriptors and accused them of thinking that, for example, because they pointed out Ashkenazi nose as an inappropriate description, that means they think having an Ashkenazi nose is bad so they are anti-Semitic. Have you? Why not?

It's making a false connection that is simply not there. If you can't grasp what I'm saying and follow a logical argument, well, you can't. But I am explaining because I take exception to being called homophobic, and to someone else being called that, on this basis.

I keep being drawn back to this thread but I need to leave it, I do see that.

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 12:28

(And the fact you think you need to 'spell out' anything about lesbian and gay terminology to me is simply laughable.)

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 12:26

If you think there's something wrong with describing someone using a gay or lesbian term, then you are assigning pejorative meaning to the term, @QueenPeony.

QueenPeony · 02/02/2022 12:10

Depends on how. If those phrases etc were being picked apart and analysed, then of course. If it was a novel about these issues and a particular character was using them as an illustration of their thoughts, then yes. But I find it odd to say that Clanchy was using them as some kind of demonstration of her poor attitude, when it really, really doesn't come across like that. Yes, she does describe situations like the one excerpted below, where kids challenge her, but she also uses these phrases directly, to us, the reader, without apparently considering them problematic.

Again, if you really, really think these usages are all part of her poetic approach and a self-aware writerly technique to deliberately raise issues, then it begs the questions= why she wouldn't simply say that when first challenged, and apologise if it was misunderstood.

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 12:06

there are tropes and phrases and words, and "ways of seeing", for want of a better term, that also evoke historical racism and/or patrician, condescending attitudes

So, if a writer was writing a book about racism, prejudice and difference and how we encounter and navigate that, would you be surprised if those phrases were maybe included in the book?

OP posts:
QueenPeony · 02/02/2022 12:02

More generally, regarding the poetic style, memoir style etc, I can see how a writer could write those kinds of descriptions in a poetic way, and be in that mindset. In poetry, for example, you might well write about and evoke in detail someone's physical presence. Likewise in a novel. And I can see how a writer might think "well this is me and my poetic style, evoking the experience of being there for the reader, bosoms, moustaches and all."

However, there are tropes and phrases and words, and "ways of seeing", for want of a better term, that also evoke historical racism and/or patrician, condescending attitudes, and there are ways of describing people physically that feel uncomfortably intrusive and inappropriate in some circumstances. Fine if it's a fictional character in a novel or a poem about a lover, etc. Not so fine when the book is about being a teacher and engaging with kids from a variety of backgrounds – it's part of that remit that you need to be sensitive and maintain respect. And if KC didn't know that, that's where her editor / publisher should have had enough awareness to step in.

QueenPeony · 02/02/2022 11:54

The fact that you think gay and lesbian terminology is inherently offensive is literally the thing I have a problem with, @QueenPeony**

Eh? Confused

I've just explained how thinking it's inappropriate description does NOT mean you think it's inherently offensive. I've just spelt that out.

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:12

In a work of fiction, yes because an author is deliberately creating an unpleasnt character. I can well imagine most of the objectionable phrases which have been removed appearing in say a Kingsley Amis novel.

A writer creates a character whether they draw on life or on imagination, there is no 'pure' fiction nor 'pure' fact. Do you expect writers to only describe pleasant, non-controversial characters?

In an autobiography- well if the writer wants to portray themselves as unpleasant up to them but don't then be surprised if there's consequences.

This isn't an 'autobiography', it's a memoir. These are different things. And it's a memoir specifically looking at prejudice and difference. Including the author's own.

I see someone else is saying this idea that we cannot describe people's appearances in books is nonsense so that makes it perfectly fine to use the extremely pejorative descriptions of the real girls Clanchy taught. Descriptions which generally would have posters on this board falling down on a writer like a ton of bricks.

These are fabricated or partially obscured characters, as explained by Clanchy. Writing descriptions of people in books is a fairly common occurrence - do you expect all descriptions to be complimentary? And as noted, the idea that these descriptions are 'pejorative' is highly contentious.

The jumping through hoops to defend the appalling descriptions used by Clanchy really is impressive.'

I'm not 'defending Clanchy' - I'm defending the right of writers to write about complicated, difficult, unpleasant, contentious, mean, and yes even offensive things. It's a fundamental human right and one that must be protected. Even if we disagree on occassion with what is being said.

OP posts:
Innocenta · 02/02/2022 11:06

Also, I don't 'know your sexuality' but I can make some informed guesses given your willingness to tell me (a lesbian) that you think I'm wrong about butch being a uniquely lesbian identity. That's an offensive position to adopt, it's a position that hurts lesbians and dilutes our culture. I discussed this thread with my butch partner last night and she felt much the same way. So no, I may not 'know', but I also know you aren't meaningfully embedded in lesbian culture, or you wouldn't be saying these things.

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 11:02

The fact that you think gay and lesbian terminology is inherently offensive is literally the thing I have a problem with, @QueenPeony

That's the issue I took up with KimikosNightmare in the first place! The assumption that 'butch' isn't neutral but must be insulting.

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 11:01

But I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me about KC, in either direction. Nothing I've said indicates that I'm averse go there being a variety of opinions about KC, so that's just... a really weird point to make, @KimikosNightmare.

QueenPeony · 02/02/2022 10:21

*Kimiko"

When I first heard about this debacle my initial reaction was to be on Clanchy's side. Then I read the excerpts and, oh dearie me. I ended up agreeing with commentators like Professor Sunny Singh who generally I would not agree with.

Yes EXACTLY! I naturally defend freedom of speech, poetic expression etc etc but when I saw what had gone on (including Clanchy's behaviour towards the reviewer who raised it) I had to agree with her critics - NOT that should be cancelled, abused or attacked, which I don't support, but that their criticisms held water and were totally reasonable.

It's been disconcerting and sobering to see people (on twitter / in the media rather than on here) I considered rational and previously sided with on GC issues, trying to shut down that criticism and make strange, bending-over-backwards excuses for KC. I still don't really understand why.

QueenPeony · 02/02/2022 10:15

Innocenta

The closest parallel is something like 'twink'.

Right, I agree thats a good parallel. So are you saying that if KC (or any writer/teacher) publicly said a male student looked like a "twink" and related that to something about his physical appearance, that would be OK? Because I think it would be really inappropriate. And do you think if I said I thought it wasn't OK, that would mean that I thought being a twink was bad? That's a huge leap to make. It's just inappropriate, as is banging on unnecessarily about skin colour, noses and bosoms.

Also you don't know my sexuality or what lesbian history I might or might not have read.

I apologise for losing my rag a bit and getting frustrated, because I generally make an effort not to do that.

KimikosNightmare · 02/02/2022 09:39

@Innocenta

That's not what 'jumping through hoops' means.

Besides, ever consider that actually, people just... disagree with you? No one has to reach to have a different opinion. They think you are wrong. @KimikosNightmare

There are posters on this thread who disagree with you and plenty who thought Clanchy's book deserved all the criticism it got- ever consider that actually people just disagree with you?

When I first heard about this debacle my initial reaction was to be on Clanchy's side. Then I read the excerpts and, oh dearie me. I ended up agreeing with commentators like Professor Sunny Singh who generally I would not agree with.

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 09:31

That's not what 'jumping through hoops' means.

Besides, ever consider that actually, people just... disagree with you? No one has to reach to have a different opinion. They think you are wrong. @KimikosNightmare

KimikosNightmare · 02/02/2022 09:28

@Notwithittoday

Have skim read most of this thread and associated articles. I haven’t read the book but from what I’m reading the book in question is autobiographical? Would these descriptions be ok if she’d have written them in a work of fiction? Sorry if I’m being dim here
In a work of fiction, yes because an author is deliberately creating an unpleasnt character. I can well imagine most of the objectionable phrases which have been removed appearing in say a Kingsley Amis novel.

In an autobiography- well if the writer wants to portray themselves as unpleasant up to them but don't then be surprised if there's consequences.

I see some one is now saying this is a memoir- so it's partly fictional- so that's all right then.

I see someone else is saying this idea that we cannot describe people's appearances in books is nonsense so that makes it perfectly fine to use the extremely pejorative descriptions of the real girls Clanchy taught. Descriptions which generally would have posters on this board falling down on a writer like a ton of bricks.

The jumping through hoops to defend the appalling descriptions used by Clanchy really is impressive.

highame · 02/02/2022 08:05

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cancelled-author-kate-clanchy-snapped-up-by-publisher-swift-press-s7z7w7k50 she has another publisher. Sorry I can't make share token work on my 'non binary' laptop

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 06:38

Also, @QueenPeony, pointing out when someone has engaged in a homophobic behaviour is perfectly congruent with fact. Your facile attempts to undermine my comments don't make any difference to that, and perhaps you need to reflect on why seeing homophobia called out bothers you so much.

Innocenta · 02/02/2022 06:33

@QueenPeony @SantaClawsServiette You're both completely wrong, sorry. 'Butch' is a uniquely, fundamentally lesbian identity. That doesn't mean the word isn't used metaphorically (as KC is using it!) outside that context. The closest parallel is something like 'twink'. The unique meaning of the word is a certain subtype of gay man. But it is used metaphorically outside that; I have heard/seen straight men described as twinks in an adjectival, metaphorical sense.

Nonetheless. It's actually both hilarious and disgusting that you both think you get to tell me (or know better than I do) what 'butch' means. @SantaClawsServiette, I remember your shitty homophobic posts elsewhere, so goodness knows why you think any lesbian is going to care about your opinion on this. @QueenPeony, you're just wrong, read some lesbian history (I know you won't!).

SantaClawsServiette · 01/02/2022 22:58

FWIW - I think maybe that it was "butch lesbian" that was the unique identity, not that butch could never be used appropriately outside of that.

But this:

I hear the resounding yell of ‘intent doesn’t matter’.

But I really fundamentally and truly think that it does. Intent does matter. How can it not?

Yes. But also, not just that. It's not just intent, but also what the rest of the text says. You cannot just take words out of a text, and have them contain the same meaning as words found within a text. The meaning of the words actually changes in relation to the words around them.

In many books in order to understand the author's intent, what you need to do is reflect all the parts of the book against each other. To take out certain phrases and say, these must mean what they mean without the other words around them just doesn't work.

SantaClawsServiette · 01/02/2022 22:44

The levels of hypocrisy in that post
are awesome. Do you serioulsy think that there won't be girls wondering if they were meant? All the posturing on here usually about women having to meet standards of beauty/ the "male gaze"/ how unacceptable it is to comment on appearances.

I'm sorry, I think you are way beyond what most people would agree is a reasonable position on this. This idea that we cannot describe people's appearances in books. Even when it isn't actually naming them. Which is your right, to have an unusual opinion, but you are speaking here as if this is something everyone knows and agrees with.

Describing a woman as butch is saying they have a more masculine appearance. "Insufficiently feminine" is your own gloss. Some women are less feminine in their features. That's just the way it is.

QueenPeony · 01/02/2022 22:38

Butch is a lesbian identity; you denying that doesn't change reality.

Slippery much!

You previously said it was a uniquely lesbian identity and that the word belongs to lesbians. I disagreed. Now you're painting me as saying it's not a lesbian identity! I didn't say that; of course it is, and either you know I didn't say that (as you can read) or you're straw-manning.

The point is it's not just just used in that way, it can be used of any woman who's perceived as masculine-looking, as here (and yes of men too, no one's stopping you googling it); KC used it in that way, Kimiko mentioned that and was bizarrely accused of homophobia.

All this smacks of wanting to bring down people who disagree with you by twisting what they said and making baseless accusations. Why not just argue your case re KC with facts?

ArabellaScott · 01/02/2022 22:35

we tend not to apply this so much to fiction, where apparently wedoneed to know about the hero's hazel eyes and floppy hair - any descriptive writing commonly will use some words to sketch the physical description of a person.

Re fiction/memoir - all fiction has truth in it and all memoir has fabrication in it, to clumsily paraphrase an idea I heard years ago. Neither is ever a pure form, all writing is a mix.

OP posts:
SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 01/02/2022 22:11

I agree with Squirrels, entirely. I think it's possible that, in the context of this discussion, I have ignored things that I would be less inclined to defend, because the attacks on other things seem palpably unjust and I am trying to get to the bottom of what is happening there. But the fact remains that I think Clanchy was telling unflinching truths in the service of exploring her own admitted prejudices, and that is not only worth doing - necessary, indeed, to combat them - but cannot be done at all without the honesty as a first step.

But in the course of this thread, I have been shocked by the argument that seeing ethnicity or skin-colour or any other physical reality is problematic in itself. Sure, if you mention it ("Oh hi, female Pterodactyl!") when it's not relevant it's problematic (although I note we tend not to apply this so much to fiction, where apparently we do need to know about the hero's hazel eyes and floppy hair). But Kimiko said that noticing race was racist if it wasn't relevant - and that seems to me not only misguided but dangerously misguided. Of course we notice race, how else has it become an axis of oppression? We couldn't just decide not to notice it even if we wanted to - and I refuse to believe that any social justice cause is best served by telling people to be less observant. Stereotypes come from broad-brush generalisations: the more sophisticated our attention becomes, the less likely we are to see patterns that do not exist - and the more likely we are to see patterns which do, including the patterns of racism and how that manifests. How do we even decide whether a pattern is emerging without acknowledging that there are differences between oppressor and oppressed? (By differences, I don't mean significant ones, obviously, just enough to work as an identifier. Like Kimiko's dark- and lighter-skinned Cubans.) And who benefits if we claim not to see race? The people who enjoy the status quo, that's who, the people who can smugly say they have no prejudice, no, honestly, nobody even notices race any more, it's just that you weren't quite the right fit for the job. (I mean, Kimiko, was it racist of Clanchy to notice that no BAME kids had won the Foyle Young Poets, and to ask why? Should she have shrugged and said, "Well, maybe they are black, it's not for me to draw conclusions about where they're from"?) We know this about sex. We know that it is better than nothing when a man acknowledges that he didn't realise quite how tricky it was for women doing his job, but he kind of gets it now. We would rather have an honest move forward than dishonest virtue-signalling.

And my final point (like Squirrels I'm going to try to step away Grin) is that the exchange about "butch" was indeed very enlightening. It showed how hard it is, when we are sure of our good intentions, to hear anyone who disagrees; and it showed how impossible it is to locate offence precisely, categorically, so as to convince everyone that something was not only subjectively but objectively offensive. And I think it also hinted at the way that for some people any mention of a particular reality when not explicitly followed by "and of course that is an entirely neutral thing to be, in itself" sounds pejorative - while for others, the idea that you might need to add it is the offence. (Why has no one pointed out, on FWR, that a girl's facial hair is also not shameful in itself? Because there's an assumption that Clanchy is adding that detail in order to show that she's "not sufficiently feminine". And we think that, because she mentioned the moustache in the first place. Isn't that begging the question?)

These are thoughts about Clanchy and her book, and the specific issues which arise from that. But more than that, more than anything: because publishing a book and then withdrawing support from not only that book but that writer's entire oeuvre is utterly craven and shit, and deeply unhealthy for the whole industry, I do not think Clanchy should have been cancelled.

Notwithittoday · 01/02/2022 21:55

Have skim read most of this thread and associated articles. I haven’t read the book but from what I’m reading the book in question is autobiographical? Would these descriptions be ok if she’d have written them in a work of fiction? Sorry if I’m being dim here