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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher

558 replies

ArabellaScott · 21/01/2022 14:23

Picador are unpublishing - ceasing to distribute - all of Clanchy's books. The article says 'by mutual consent', but it's not a good thing to hear a poet/author being 'cancelled'.

Literature/poetry is not in a healthy state right now.

unherd.com/thepost/picador-cancels-poet-kate-clanchys-books/

In case you missed the brouhaha - Article from last year:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58151144

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ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 13:31

Yes, nobody is suggesting ITS THE LAW to read any particular book. But if you've not read you're not in a position to criticise it. Nor, I suppose, defend it, which is why I look forward to reading the book this thread's about and which has just landed on my doormat.

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SantaClawsServiette · 28/01/2022 13:19

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]He tweeted this under a discussion of whether the time it takes to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand was a worthwhile investment. It was nothing to do with Kate Clanchy.

Critics of Kate Clanchy: is this the kind of support you welcome? Someone who thinks it's not necessary to read a book before condemning it? What a shameful attitude. It would find a comfortable home in Isis or the Taliban.

Chimene Suleyman responded with anger and quote-tweeted him.

Ok so you just compared me and two other brown/Muslim women to ISIS and the Taliban? Is this a sick joke?

twitter.com/chimenesuleyman/status/1424690206159081472?t=JOzKFd-uOyDixUa9qQkfmA&s=19

And that ended up with Society of Authors involvement, and coverage of it in Private Eye

www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/11/society-of-authors-philip-pullman-tweets-kate-clanchy[/quote]
Ah, ok.

I don't have much time for PH, but I think he's right, reading excepts on Goodreads is not reading a book.

That does not mean you need to read Atlas Shrugged, life is probably too short, but you can't be too critical of it either.

And thinking it is adaquate to read some little quotes suggests to me that the person making that statement doesn't really understand that the whole is not the sum of it's parts.

Phobiaphobic · 28/01/2022 10:54

Bravo, @SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl - spot on.

TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 28/01/2022 10:45

^^by which I obviously don't mean KC = Hitler... It's just a general principle that our opinions are perforce shaped by the opinions of people around us we admire. That's surely just part of being part of society.

I shall step out now because I have nothing against KC per se and arguing on general principles probably isn't helpful.

TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 28/01/2022 10:39

quite happy to allow your thoughts and beliefs and opinions be formed through the prism of other people's prejudices, ideas and opinions.

Well, yes, in some cases I am. I haven't read Mein Kampf but I'm happy to rely on other people's opinions on it.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 10:37

Of course you can't give an informed opinion before having read a book, Twenty, unless you are quite happy to allow your thoughts and beliefs and opinions be formed through the prism of other people's prejudices, ideas and opinions.

I still haven't got my copy of Some Kids, but I do look forward to reading it.

Ptero, thanks, that's a great post. There does seem to be a narrowing of what it is acceptable to write about - or who it's acceptable to write about. Concurrently, I expect, a narrowing of what it is acceptable to think. Only 'lived experience' counts as 'valid', apparently, but then again, only the 'lived experience' of some people. The girl/woman (not sure of her age) who defended Kate Clanchy's use of 'almond eyes' has presumably not had the correct lived experience of her body?

I do understand concerns about appropriation - I suppose it comes from an examination of power imbalances and hierarchies adn privilege, etc. Which is an exercise worth considering. However we need to retain an acknowledgement of humanity and compassion while doing that. Roxane Gay wrote an excellent piece on privilege:

'Given that even very privileged people can be marginalized, how do we measure privilege? What is the correct hierarchy? We can’t measure privilege. We shouldn’t even try. Our energies would be better directed to what truly matters.

Too many people have become self-appointed privilege police, patrolling the halls of discourse, ready to remind people of their privilege, whether those people have denied that privilege or not. In online discourse, in particular, the specter of privilege is always looming darkly. When someone writes from their experience, there is often someone else, at the ready, pointing a trembling finger, accusing that writer of having various kinds of privilege. How dare someone speak to a personal experience without accounting for every possible configuration of privilege or the lack thereof? We lose sight of this but we would live in a world of silence if the only people who were allowed to write or speak from experience or about difference were those absolutely without privilege.'

therumpus.net/2012/05/peculiar-benefits/

And it makes me think of Ian McEwan's quote:

'“Imagining what it is like to be someone other than yourself is at the core of our humanity. It is the essence of compassion and the beginning of morality” '

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TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 28/01/2022 10:29

Well, as I pointed out, there is evidence that at least one ex-KC pupil was unhappy with the book on GR. Did anyone ask the others what they thought? I would argue that Pullman was as much an uninvolved gatekeeper as the anonymous critic.

Not everything needs to be robust literary criticism. I can confidently say I think L. Ron Hubbard's books are shit without having read them without having to write a thesis on why. If I were writing an Eng Lit exam, fine that wouldn't stand up as a response, but on Goodreads? Sure it does.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 28/01/2022 10:23

I've just finished the book and I am really angry. I think it is utterly, utterly shit behaviour on the part of her publisher to dump the entirety of her work after having published the book, for which they are after all responsible for editing etc in the first place, and I would think that even if the book was an utter shitshow. But it isn't. It is humane, thoughtful, humble and truthful.

I understand why people resented some of the descriptions. Taken out of context they could sound offensive. But they are, in almost every case, presented in a context where she is explicitly examining her assumptions and prejudices. The 'narrow skull' of the Somali boy, for example, is mentioned in a chapter about the perception of race and ethnicity based on physical characteristics: it is deeply relevant to the boy's story whether he 'looks Kenyan' or 'looks Somali' - and those are ideas which she deliberately interrogates, positioning herself as painfully ignorant. The chapter about 'fatness' may be 'fatphobic', but it is about the gaze of a privileged observer and how that plays out - how privilege translates across the whole spectrum of education and money and ease of life, and what bodies demonstrate and do in that context. (It's like the way that I, as a feminist, would be enraged by being described as 'flat-chested' by a random man, while a breastfeeding consultant writing about her experience of helping me breastfeed would have every right to call me that - because it's not only true, it's entirely relevant.)

Clanchy is writing truthfully about how injustice is reinforced by unconscious bias, and trying to make that conscious. She says: 'I still suppose that [...] most people are prejudiced; that I am, that prejudice occurs in the reading of poetry as well as everything else. I also think that if you acknowledge it, and try to set it aside, you can see more.' That should be the tagline of the book, FFS. Her crime appears to be that she speaks as honestly as she can about what prejudices she brings to the table. Does it matter that she is writing about the shifts in her perception which make her, not perfect, but clearer-sighted? No, apparently she should be punished, not only for being racist but for talking about how racism works, even in the best-intentioned people. So what do you do, if you are privileged, and know you are, and you're trying to be humane and human and open about that? Nothing. You can't win. Shut up.

I get that people are furious about racism and injustice. They're right to be. But if your answer to oppression is to want to reverse the roles completely, then you're part of the problem. (And I say that as an equally furious feminist.) If you silence anyone privileged who dares to address how the problem looks from 'their side', then what are you left with? Silence, and no progress at all. Arabella has it right: you don't get writing that's free from racism, you get writing that is careful not to be accused of racism : and what that means is that the dominant voices are so scared to include anything 'outside their lived experience' that they play it safe, and stick with writing about people who look exactly like they do, and our discourse gets even less diverse.

You cannot solve a problem unless you can see the problem. Censoring people for trying, as best they can, to anatomise the problem, is about as counter-productive as you can get. Telling the truth - unvarnished, ugly, "problematic" - is the first step on the path to social justice. It is also the only rule of good art.

Tell the truth, tell the truth, tell the truth.

ShinyHappyPoster · 28/01/2022 09:28

The uninvolved gatekeepers were the people being 'offended' on the students' behalf when the students and their families were clearly saying they weren't offended and they supported Clanchy. These students and families weren't anonymous people claiming to be her students.

And actually I don't think you can 'diss' a book you haven't finished or read. You can say why you think you don't like it but it's hardly robust literary criticism if you didn't finish it. You have no idea how it developed or changed. I can say I didn't like Cloud Atlas and didn't finish it. I can't say it's a shit book because I have no idea.

TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 28/01/2022 07:46

I'm not sure who I understand who the uninvolved gatekeepers are in this scenario, are we talking Pullman and co or the critics of the book? Could go either way.

TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 28/01/2022 07:45

And actually I think it's OK to diss a book even if you haven't read the whole thing. I've never even seen a copy of The Fountainhead, let alone read it, but on the basis of what I've read about it I'm comfortable saying it's complete pish.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 07:41

There was a strong message that uninvolved gatekeepers would decide how certain people could speak and how people could be described

That's largely the impression I'm getting.

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ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 07:39

Thanks, Purgatory. What a mess.

poetry!, most marginalised of all contemporary writing - you know what they say: they fight so hard because the stakes are so low....

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TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 28/01/2022 06:20

There's one person on the GR thread that kicked all this off claiming to have been a pupil of hers and taking an anti-KC stance. Whether it's a real former student is anyone's guess of course.

ShinyHappyPoster · 28/01/2022 02:33

@cassandre

She denied accurate quotes from her book were in there, and launched a coordinated attack on two women of colour who had respectfully drawn attention to them

That line about 'coordinated attack on two [three] women of colour' isn't true. She attacked a young white woman teacher who had reviewed her book on Goodreads and had condemned it as racist. And that attack was pretty cringeworthy. But once Twitter took her to task (Monisha Rajesh, Chimene Suleyman, Sunny Singh and others), she apologised. She never attacked women of colour.

Rajesh/Suleyman/Singh have said that they received racist hate mail as a result of the way they criticised Clanchy on Twitter, and that's deplorable, but it's a HUGE leap to say that Clanchy herself was somehow responsible for those attacks.

I was following the whole messy saga on Twitter very closely, and it strikes me as utterly unjust the way that Clanchy's unconscious bias in her book (which she did eventually apologise for) was equated with the awful racist messages Rajesh, Suleyman and Singh received behind the scenes from internet trolls.

I believe those three women when they say they were targeted by racists, but on Twitter, I never saw them receiving hate, I saw them receiving a huge amount of support.

I did see tweets telling Clanchy she should commit suicide because she's such an awful person.

Clanchy appealed for people to come out and say her book wasn't racist, and that move backfired spectacularly, but I haven't seen a single tweet of hers criticising women of colour. On the contrary, she apologised to women of colour.

I agree with you, OP. Picador ceasing to publish all her books, not just the book at the centre of the controversy, is complete overkill. Ironically, one of the books they've 'cancelled' is compilation of poems by the refugee pupils Clanchy taught.

This kind of intolerance and virtue-signalling is not making the world a better place.

Yy I followed it on Twitter at the time and that is what it looked like. It's a stretch and inaccurate to say Clanchy was involved in racism. Iirc some of the people who attacked Clanchy had been involved in attacking other writers too.

There was also the issue that numerous students described in the book spoke in defence of Clanchy and supported her descriptions of themselves. But they were completely drowned out by others feeling 'offended' on their behalf.

There was a real push for sanitising the teaching experience or forcing teachers to pretend they do not see difference and they never struggle. Pushing that type of fantasy isn't brave or just or right. Neither is it laudable for middle class writers and publishing staff to be patronising and paternalistic to those people who knew Clanchy and were happy with their descriptions.

There was a strong message that uninvolved gatekeepers would decide how certain people could speak and how people could be described. It showed the worst of publishing and considering how many awful no-platforming scandals publishing has been involved in on Twitter, that's quite a feat.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/01/2022 02:19

As it happened...

Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher
Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher
Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/01/2022 02:13

He tweeted this under a discussion of whether the time it takes to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand was a worthwhile investment. It was nothing to do with Kate Clanchy.

Critics of Kate Clanchy: is this the kind of support you welcome? Someone who thinks it's not necessary to read a book before condemning it? What a shameful attitude. It would find a comfortable home in Isis or the Taliban.

Chimene Suleyman responded with anger and quote-tweeted him.

Ok so you just compared me and two other brown/Muslim women to ISIS and the Taliban? Is this a sick joke?

twitter.com/chimenesuleyman/status/1424690206159081472?t=JOzKFd-uOyDixUa9qQkfmA&s=19

And that ended up with Society of Authors involvement, and coverage of it in Private Eye

www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/11/society-of-authors-philip-pullman-tweets-kate-clanchy

SantaClawsServiette · 28/01/2022 01:46

What? What did Pullman have to do with any of it?

NoSquirrels · 28/01/2022 00:49

I think my conclusion is that I’m writing to KC via her agent in support/acknowledgment of her position, whilst understanding this was any she wins/she loses.

Everyone lost in this.

I really don’t think any of this furore will ultimately change the inequalities in power in publishing,

Meanwhile a poet-educator with demonstrable success in real-world outcomes for her students via POETRY - poetry!, most marginalised of all contemporary writing - is no-platformed, even if temporarily. Her student poets go unheard.

‘White saviour’ I struggle hugely with.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/01/2022 21:47

Philip Pullman et al stoked the fires a tremendous amount and ultimately if everyone had taken this offline and stopped being so opinionated for clicks (on ALL sides) without using human listening skills person to person a huge costly mess could have been averted.

He really did. Philip Pullman did, as far as I can tell, a keyword search for goodreads on twitter, and laid into people for reviewing books without reading them, even though they weren't even discussing Kate Clanchy's book.

That was how I ended up following the drama.

SantaClawsServiette · 27/01/2022 20:59

[quote NoSquirrels]The alternative perspective:
www.theguardian.com/books/2021/aug/13/pointing-out-racism-in-books-is-not-an-attack-kate-clanchy[/quote]
It's rather begging the question, though.

NoSquirrels · 27/01/2022 19:12

There were Twitter pile-one of 3 WOC writers.

There may have been similar on Dara McAnulty.

I don’t think KC was necessarily responsible for this, though she didn’t help the situation.

There’s a complaint that the press ignored the social media pile-one to the WOC, thereby erasing an aspect of the news story and making it all about KC and ‘cancelling’, rather than legitimate concerns.

KC quoted one of the WOC in her Prospect article but did not name her. Generous interpretation of this would be she didn’t want to draw another pile-on to that writer’s door. Alternative interpretation (shared by he WOC) is that this was another micro aggression (or just an aggression?) and repeated the silencing, inflaming the situation again.

KC hasn’t behaved brilliantly. Her ‘supporters’ on social media behaved worse - but this is the nature of Twitter particularly and loads of those ‘supporters’ were basically bandwagon-jumping trolls. The WOC have an equally vocal set of supporters who have criticised KC and made her personally culpable for the social media pile-ons. Picador hasn’t helped at all. Her editor made it worse.

I’ve seen the claims repeated about KC attempting to doxx the reviewer but no first-hand evidence.

Ultimately KC is a person with a huge social media following but less than savvy social media skills. That’s my take - her initial ‘mistake’ was to use her social media following to disprove/deny, then failed to apologise well/quickly, then stuff with the WOC took off around her, Philip Pullman et al stoked the fires a tremendous amount and ultimately if everyone had taken this offline and stopped being so opinionated for clicks (on ALL sides) without using human listening skills person to person a huge costly mess could have been averted.

Sashimimimi · 27/01/2022 18:59

Well, the GoodReads commenter gives her unusual first name and profession and indicates three people she follows on Twitter, probably not too hard to triangulate from that. I don't know if you could get that info from GR itself.

😬

TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 27/01/2022 18:57

Well, the GoodReads commenter gives her unusual first name and profession and indicates three people she follows on Twitter, probably not too hard to triangulate from that. I don't know if you could get that info from GR itself.