Matt Walsh asks trans activist 'what is a woman'..

Anyway so given that.

The Tories imo are better on women (within Tory political framework obv!).

Generalisations-

• IME conservative women can be/ often are extremely formidable. The socialised deference (subtle) to men is either different or they've rejected it or something.

• Two female PMs

• IMO their female more well known MPs eg cabinet position some point etc.
  Tend to be more... Dunno word. Sort of. You WILL listen type thing. More direct. Not sure.

I put it down to.
Conservative values (not any particular govt but the base ideology).
Look after self, make own way, get on with it, be determined. Don't ask for help. If want to succeed and work then will.
More or less.
Low tax small state etc.

Imo those who are ideological conservative care way more about that than isms. You got the right stuff? You're one of us.

While left terrible blind spot that they totally believe amazing.
Literally cannot be prejudiced in any way.
Cannot be wrong.
And so eg with this.
Shat all over women blatently.
And no way could have been not fantastic thing to do, full stop.

NoLonger yes.

For Tories. I mean my political/social opinions are kind of inbuilt. Same with feminism. It's just what I am, at a very deep level. Iyswim.

When I say left I don't mean labour or whatever.

I mean the base values of the political ideology iyswim. Different eg left in USA Vs here. Totally not the same kettle of fish.

The left in UK for sure won't do anything.

They have always been at least to me, about the men. Bob crowe speech really brought it home, years ago now.
He was naturally referencing the workers a lot and it was very clear, to me anyway, that in his minds eye the workers were all male.

And the amount of lefty blokes I've had over the last, what. 30 + years.

Corner me in pub. Start conversation about whatever. Policies, current stuff going on, Blair centre not one of ours etc.

Then when I tried to answer. Ignore me. And launch into essentially a lecture on how wonderful Labour are. Any interjection was not welcome and he'd carry on.
My job clearly was to sit there looking impressed. Nodding. Maybe agreeing sometimes.

Labour men IME, well the ones you know are labour because they don't shut up about it.

Yeah imo way way worse than Tory men.

Mainly because those lefty blokes are certain they are simply wonderful human beings, while being sexist as all fuck.

Yeah no they're a lost cause.

It’s been difficult for me to come to terms with how the only people who are pushing back against the TRA ideology are the conservative groups. The underlying misogyny of the left - when my expectations were that they’d support women and girls - saddens me

NoLonger who said that?

FFS.

As mentioned earlier. It's been the go to characterisation of women who know sex matters for a really long time now.

And of course we'll imo most will swallow that characterisation happily, for the reasons I put a bit earlier.

In USA I have no idea what they will do because obviously the interest of the right is growing.

Which is down to them entirely.

Walsh is right on this particular issue, this is the issue that matters.

'I think it's more that authoritarian movements in general, whether the Christian religious right, fascists, Stalinists and radical Islamists are all deeply hostile to trans rights.'

I find that comment mind blowing in the level of self interest displayed.

Was it on purpose, or just no thought, or just don't care, this group matters, fuck the rest...

Fundamental religious groups, well the two I'm most familiar with which are the two you mentioned.

Both abrahamic, note. Have same shit lists. Which have been in place for a very very very long time.

One being of course being homosexuality unacceptable.

And how in practice, the actual primary focus is on men who engage in sex act/s with men. (Male sex I mean in this case).

Isn't the T with LGB? Why decide not to mention what means for other parts of your group?
Especially given that plenty of trans people are same sex attracted.

Why did you decide not to mention that?
-

Plus of course, nightmare for women and girls (female).

Plenty trans people are female sex. What about them?

I don't understand why not mention the interactions between different aspects of oppression.

I thought intersectionality was vv important reason for trans people being highest priority to be helped?

And I’m not sure how long lefty women should wait for the left to start protecting women’s spaces, toilets, refuges, sports and changing rooms. All I can see is that “progressive” left-wing types are the ones taking them away

It’s a good point about how comments that posters here “are all right-wing fundamentalist Christians” is only made because most posters aren’t.

It’s hard to come to terms with how badly the left-wing parties have let women down though.

That dystopia - having various fundamental religious groups in charge IS here.

Not in this country. But in various forms around the world, with vast numbers of people living with it.

'I think it's more that authoritarian movements in general, whether the Christian religious right, fascists, Stalinists and radical Islamists are all deeply hostile to trans rights.'

BARLEY

Even now, when coming to think about what if/when the USA right really get going on this. What it could well mean for various USA places if, having tried various wedge issues through the years (mainly abortion), this issue turns out to be the one that works brilliantly.

If that happens. Then it's entirely due to trans activist demands, and what is already in place. Due to forgetting that women/girls are half population and don't fancy being at even MORE risk from men. And they have the vote. And their own brains. And they do in fact know when they're being shat on.

What will trans activists on USA do now?

Won't change strategy.
Won't swivel to charm offensive.
No way will try to engage with women.
They always blame others. Always.
They also never actually seem to do anything except talk. No hint of orgs actually helping anyone on the ground.
They demand others do things for them.

In fact.
Won't take any responsibility.
Always points finger others.
Lies with impunity.
Particular loathing for middle aged women who say no.
Expects everything handed to on plate.
Prone to flying off handle and verbal abuse when don't get what want.
Everyone hates them and everything is unfair.
....

Teenage boy. Surely. Mummy is being mean.

I think that dystopia that Barley was trying to describe is already here

My younger kids play a childish version of this game barley is too, usually silly things like:

Would you rather eat poo once and get ice cream every day OR lick the cat’s bum every time you wanted chocolate?

It’s quite possible to have a society that doesn’t make women choose between poo and cats’ bums.

I would like to see the question asked...Will everything cycle around, to recreate lost female spaces?

In sports we'll have male(XY) and unisex(either), but then we need female (XX) categorisation. This will need to be added as females cannot compete with men, it will be an ongoing issue until clearer boundaries are redefined.

A new thread has been started, saying a woman was questioned by police tonight over stickers saying "3+ women killed by men each week. Domestic violence kills!"

I think that dystopia that Barley was trying to describe is already here.

The way the powerful/ influential/ enormously respected/ well known to be sensible, caring, devote time to charity. Activist for groups that get a crappier deal because of who they are...

No one off limits for attack. Often lies told widely. All out to trash anyone who puts something in way of getting what wanted. Basic strategy boils down to Destroy Them.

And fucking politicians scared to say what is, has always been and always will be obvious fundamental fact?

Gibbering to find any way out of questions? Because there's no good answer because it's utter drivel?

How do much FEAR and everywhere? So much that telling women they are walking wombs who have to bunk up with rapists in prison, is a thing they SUPPORT?

terrifying.

We're talking about regimes which legitimate and enable women's rape and torture and promote the permanent physical scarring of the most vulnerable children. Let's not do totalitarian bingo because it's notnl going to look good for you.

I really don’t get it, barley seems to be arguing that women have a form of Sophie’s Choice over who is worse for women and women’s rights, so given the choice of the two sides, better to go with barley’s side.

How about neither?

With sports people, fair few said that recently.

And c. Is for sure why for most.

Look what happened to Martina. Martina fucking Navratilova. Living legend. Huge LGB etc activist for years. All round inspirational good egg. And a massive massive global name in sport.

One foot wrong and shit hit fan. And not as bad as would be for someone not retired.

Plus of course. Slagging off the sort of feminists that have always been really hated.

Has always been a fun hobby.

People can say what they like because pretty much everyone primed to take on anything that paints us in bad light.

Man haters
Female supremacists
Jealous bitter ugly
'think they're men'
Getting above themselves who do they think they are
Dangerous to families/ marriage/ whole of society
Want to kill male babies
Want women to stop having sex with men ever
Want men sent to prison if a woman says so
And so much more.

Right wing? Sure why not. No more bizarre than anything else been said.

The sports issue is a microcosm of that. Loads of people saying "it's complicated". It really isn't. If we believe men and women should be segregated for sport, then they should be. If we believe some men should compete against women (I personally don't believe so), then all men should.

Spot on. “It’s complicated” means one of these things:

a) “I need to deliberately make it complicated to disguise the simple truth”
b) “I am too stupid to understand the simple truth” or
c) “I’m terrified that if I state the simple truth then I will be castigated for it.”

It’s not actually complicated.

'No-one thinks the bulk of posters on this board are right-wing'

Don't they?

Most only know what they read on Twitter. Various news sites. Most people tend to access media etc that shares their general outlook on life.

USA people reading, how would they know? And when USA people are told others are far right, very different meaning to here.

Even here most people no clue MN.
Biscuits, pushchairs. The stereotypes about what mums are like come all the time. Live in small world, thinking about babies and school uniforms and going for coffee and when 'hubby' will be home.

Fwr was always seen as a nest of vipers. And v common idea that it had been 'infiltrated' by extreme feminists. Who didn't even have children! And they were poisoning the minds of simple credulous mummies.

No, I really don't think many at all would know that MN whichever bit isn't... Whatever they are told.

Barley thing is.

The number of old school bleeding heart 2nd wave type Feminists, is really small.

I have only met other women who are same thinking as me online. And happily had RL meets with some and made friends etc.

I have never in my whole life met a woman who says yep patriarchy in my life. Who connects things, and sees the common root.

Most people including women are middle ground. Bit this way. Bit that way. And if this issue seems to be getting active challenge from the right they WILL support. Obviously.

USA right ranges from. Not USA so guessing. Bunch who like for tax, spending, that stuff. But also a huge number (seems to me) who are much more extreme. And there's plenty States that way from what I understand.

Reaction to this thread is example.
And same here loads of people saying Tory because this.

By demanding way way too much.
And then really going for generally lefty feminist women and telling everyone they're evil.
It worked. We were never exactly popular anyway!
As hoped, message out there don't listen to them evil.

So here we are. I wonder when those who said women who know what sex is are the biggest risk.

Will realise that they really were looking in the wrong direction.

Exactly, it is extraordinarily simple.

The sports issue is a microcosm of that. Loads of people saying "it's complicated". It really isn't. If we believe men and women should be segregated for sport, then they should be. If we believe some men should compete against women (I personally don't believe so), then all men should.

Same for prisons - I would have more respect for posters who argued, however ignorantly, for getting rid of all sex segregation and putting all prisoners in together. The argument might be weak, but at least it wouldn't be illogical.

We are talking about far right regimes where being cancelled doesn't mean you lose your consultancy post or decide to resigm from your university because students were being mean to you or even facing a quiet chat from the police to check your thinking
Yeah so are we Barley. I assume you are not talking about what happened to Kathleen Stock here Barley because you'd have to be a world class a hole to describe the harassment, bullying and threats she endured as students being mean?

We're talking about regimes which legitimate and enable women's rape and torture and promote the permanent physical scarring of the most vulnerable children. Let's not do totalitarian bingo because it's notnl going to look good for you.

I think the reason people have taken notice of Matt Walsh is that he persisted in keeping the focus. He focused on the lack of clarity in this ‘new’ definition of woman.

Yes Hellabore and he makes that good point in the video linked earlier from FB. We are the ones arguing from a position of simple fact. There’s no need for us to make the argument complex because it’s simple.

I made this point earlier in the thread. A simple, age old definition of woman exists. TRAs try to make out it’s us doing something “new” with the definition by linking it to biology. It’s gaslighting. A definition linked to biology IS the definition.

Keep it simple, keep it focused.

No-one thinks the bulk of posters on this board are right-wing, no matter how loudly or repeatedly they say it. "Right-wing" is used as an accusation against people thought to be left-wing, because those are the only targets who would ever worry about it.

Imagine going up to the conservative party conference and shouting accusingly, "you're all tories!" They would stare at you and say, "um, yes, I know?"

Things to do with beliefs can't be rationally argued. Because they aren't rational. Hence, beliefs.

In this the gender > sex people have a lot in common with more fundamental religious people of more than one religion for sure.

This topic we're in the middle. Being told to accept a set of beliefs. Just because.

Fact is. In USA. Right wing Christian etc huge numbers. Republican States with plenty in charge who follow what most here would see as extreme beliefs.

Was it strategically a good idea, to fuck off so many women who fight against the most damaging parts of right extreme beliefs?