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Original poster

Do people see centre left parties as more moral?

133 replies

ukipperMN · 20/01/2022 14:16

Hi,

I’m an ex-UKIP member who hasn’t been active in politics since we got brexit done, if I were to join another party and become active in politics again I’d likely join Richard Tice’s Reform Party or possibly the heritage party but I’ve no plans to join either at the moment or become politically active again.

I am watching the debate on self ID with interest but am not playing a part in it, just watching things unfold with interest and had some questions and wanted to hear people’s thoughts.

What I really don’t understand is why so many of the people so against self ID seem to want to only vote for parties that want self ID (lab/Lib/PC/SNP/Green etc). It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view. I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

I wondered why this is and thought I would put my head above the parapet and ask. Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?

I expect self ID will become law in the U.K. eventually and I think it is likely to become law in Scotland in the next year or so. And I think many feminists opposed to self ID will likely vote for the parties that make it law and vote for them again after it becomes law.

I’ve seen polls where certain policies poll very well but once people find out whose policies they are they go off the policy and say they will never vote for the party proposing the policy regardless. Likewise unpopular policies can become supported if the party proposing them is viewed favourably. It seems to be a moral perception where people see some parties are morally better than others. Would posters agree with that observation?

This is why I think self ID will become law regardless of how popular it is now. People see the parties committed to it as good and will eventually elect them regardless of what they promise to do.

OP posts:
KimikosNightmare · 22/01/2022 22:45

@SantaClawsServiette

Being anti-EU was at one time the normative leftist view.
Indeed. Tony Benn opposed Britain's entry to the Common Market. Corbyn wasn't a Remainer.
SantaClawsServiette · 22/01/2022 21:23

Being anti-EU was at one time the normative leftist view.

ChristinaXYZ · 22/01/2022 20:11

[quote VelvetChairGirl]*'You asked for it'?
'You deserved it'?
'Look what you made them do'?

Casting a vote for Brexit or supporting UKIP in its quest to leave the EU was absolutely, without doubt, clear grounds for other people to personally abuse & intimidate them?!*

may I remind you of the adverts UKIP posted and the words of farage, here is some.

fubarradio.com/politics/stupidly-offensive-things-nigel-farage-has-said/[/quote]
So, say you've supported leaving the EU for years, since before UKIP even. Many have. And because Farage says something and puts a poster up you're supposed to go, oh sorry now we can't vote leave, despite wanting to leave for 30 years? Madness. Narrow minded madness. And part of the identify politics problems of the left that is keeping them out of power. You did or said X, I don't agree with X, therefore you're bad and I'm ok with people calling you bad things because, well, you're just bad, basically because you're not me. Dear heavens...

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 19:50

most of them hand on heart believe that more people are better off in a free market

free market is how we have ended up with people like Bezos being the richest man in the world while his employees piss in bottles rather then go on toilet breaks and end up dead working thru a tornado.

The problem is those who support rampant capitalism and the free market are the sort who fantasies about being the Bezos and never think they will be the warehouse worker pissing in a bottle, but statistically well......

ChristinaXYZ · 22/01/2022 19:42

@sadpapercourtesan

Yeah, broadly I do think left-wing parties are more moral than right-wing ones. Left-wing thinking tends to centre others/the aggregate, whereas right-wing thinking is, usually quite unabashedly, all about self and the individual.

My father taught me when I was tiny that Tories were people whose parents hadn't taught them to share. I'm now in my late 40s with a degree in history/political theory and an extremely wide-ranging professional background, and I've seen nothing whatsoever that dislodges that principle.

What you say is exactly the problem - people are brought up to believe bigoted things about the otherside. I thought that about Tories, the not sharing thing, when I was young but actually most of them hand on heart believe that more people are better off in a free market and that therefore a free market is more moral. I am not saying that's right or wrong - but to say they vote Tory because they are selfish or don't care just ain't true - they believe that the free market is more moral because fewer people suffer, and many Tories think that left wing economics is immoral because (they believe) its supporters would rather have more people suffer in order to have a go at the super rich - and the suffering is not usually done by the left wing mainly middle class (these day) voter but by those who don't vote at all (till Brexit).

I'm a floating voter. We have friends in both camps. The older I get the more I realise that the left wing ones really are just virtue signallers. And it is the virtue signalling that has got us into this problem with self-id.

I agree with the OP that this is intrinsically a left wing problem, which is why there is so little pushback from left wing politicians. which is not to say that there are not self-id supporters on the right, there are a few, but it is not usually virtue signalling. I don't think Crispin Blunt is a virtue signaller. I just think he wants to centre transwomen over women. Why, who knows, but it is not intrinsic to him being right wing?

I also think there is a social problem in the way the different groups treat others in their group. Our left wing friends tend to think: I do the right thing, my friends all do/say this, I must have good friends, therefore I must do what is popular in my group. - which is no way to thrash out an ethical problem because it means if someone differs then the it is not considered that they might have a valid point but just that they're 'bad' (like you thinking all Tories are selfish just because they think the answer to poverty is different to you) when really it is just the person with the different view is not seeking popularity in the left wing group so effectively. Then they, the left wingers, ostracise the offender.

The right wingers will react with dismay if they don't like your views, call you an expletive laden name and then poor you another drink. They're then up for a knock about debate on the subject, and just occasionally one changes their minds and sometimes they change ours. They do not ostracise you. They do not seek for -phobias, or -isms, in what you say, or you have amoral failing if you don't agree. They do not virtue signal. So they are less prone to fall for identity politics.

We walk a fine line between both groups and have kept most friendships. It is harder with the left wingers though.

atee · 22/01/2022 19:24

@madisonbridges

It is totally possible to understand others... if you have empathy and compassion.

Things lacking in the voters who trend far right, as evidenced by the posts and behaviours of those voters and the politican'ts they vote in.

Simple really, it is just about human behaviour.

To believe that no one outside the left has any empathy or compassion demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge of human behaviour. I doubt you ever will when you're happy just living in an echo chamber.

Nd by the way, the left voted in TB. Did he bomb Iraq to smithereens and destabilise the ME out of compassion and empathy?

You mean Tony the Tory?

Yes he was the most successful tory prime minister we have ever had, he made the country more right wing than the evil beast thatcher.

And I did not not say no one outside the left has compassion, what I did say was the right wingers do not have it...

But since you appear to be a binary thinker I can understand (and empathise, see what I did there ;) ) with how your constrained worldview cannot allow for anything other than the "right vs left" dynamic existing.

Good luck with that reflection chamber you are in though, being a Tory must suck.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 19:12

*'You asked for it'?
'You deserved it'?
'Look what you made them do'?

Casting a vote for Brexit or supporting UKIP in its quest to leave the EU was absolutely, without doubt, clear grounds for other people to personally abuse & intimidate them?!*

may I remind you of the adverts UKIP posted and the words of farage, here is some.

fubarradio.com/politics/stupidly-offensive-things-nigel-farage-has-said/

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 19:07

@Lovelyricepudding

theres a big difference between gender reassignment which the GRA is about and self id which stonewall is obsessed with and lied about the law to make people believe was part of UK legislation.

There is but without one there would not be the other.

not true transexuals have been around for decades and gender reassignment doesn't trump the equality act single sex provision laws.

and has nothing to do with gender identity, self ID, gender fluid etc and conflating sex with gender, thats all Stonewall.

BrandySours · 22/01/2022 19:01

@VelvetChairGirl

I don’t see people who disagree with me as bad or immoral but when I was campaigning for brexit I received so much personal abuse from people on the left that it seemed clear to me that some on the left don’t just see me as someone they disagree with but more like someone they think is bad

you were a member of UKIP what did you expect, you were a member of a party that lied about the EU/immigration, scare mongered, demonized foreigners and encouraged racism. Hmm

'You asked for it'? 'You deserved it'? 'Look what you made them do'?

Casting a vote for Brexit or supporting UKIP in its quest to leave the EU was absolutely, without doubt, clear grounds for other people to personally abuse & intimidate them?!

🤷🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 18:44

theres a big difference between gender reassignment which the GRA is about and self id which stonewall is obsessed with and lied about the law to make people believe was part of UK legislation.

There is but without one there would not be the other.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 18:41

@Lovelyricepudding

How would that encroachment have happened without the GRA creating the lie that you can change sex? Or the Equality Act gender reassignment protected characteristic mean transfer orgs claim discrimination if not treated as the opposite sex. What has happened under the Tories (and I don't dispute that they have miserably failed to challenge it or uphold women's rights) developed from groundwork laid down in law under Labour.
theres a big difference between gender reassignment which the GRA is about and self id which stonewall is obsessed with and lied about the law to make people believe was part of UK legislation.

and the UK government i.e Tories have done nothing about it and countless Government bodies signed up to Stonewall for advice even the PM.

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 17:57

How would that encroachment have happened without the GRA creating the lie that you can change sex? Or the Equality Act gender reassignment protected characteristic mean transfer orgs claim discrimination if not treated as the opposite sex. What has happened under the Tories (and I don't dispute that they have miserably failed to challenge it or uphold women's rights) developed from groundwork laid down in law under Labour.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 17:49

@Lovelyricepudding

VelvetChairGirl you said the gender stuff started with the Tories. I consider it started with the GRA which undermined the Equality Act and set up the lie that men can be women. The rest has been progressive (regressive) creep from there. I think the Tories should have repealed the GRA a decade ago and certainly should be stopping the abuse now. But we are talking about which party 'started it'.
The GRA Doesnt say anything about Self ID or gender ideology, it also states clearly that trans people with a GRC can be excluded from sports if their inclusion causes an unfair advantage, and they can be excluded from single sex and safe spaces where their is a need in line with the Equality Act.

so why isn't the GRA and Equality Act being enforced?

I dont remember any of this encroachment being around back in 2009, nor do I remember everywhere referring to gender not sex do you?

so who's watch has all this occurred under unchallenged?

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 17:35

VelvetChairGirl you said the gender stuff started with the Tories. I consider it started with the GRA which undermined the Equality Act and set up the lie that men can be women. The rest has been progressive (regressive) creep from there. I think the Tories should have repealed the GRA a decade ago and certainly should be stopping the abuse now. But we are talking about which party 'started it'.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 17:18

@Lovelyricepudding

why the hell do you think Self ID is a left thing? we have a Tory government and all this gender stuff started with them

VelvetChairGirl can you explain this? I don't recall MaGareth Thatcher or John Major's governments doing much with 'this gender stuff'? The major screw up was labour and the GRA.

Deliberately going back to before the movement captured Stonewall I see.

who has been in power for the last 11 years again?
and what have they done to stop males being put in womens prisons, what have they done to ensure sex not gender is the definer?

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 17:15

Margaret - weird autocorrect

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 17:14

why the hell do you think Self ID is a left thing? we have a Tory government and all this gender stuff started with them

VelvetChairGirl can you explain this? I don't recall MaGareth Thatcher or John Major's governments doing much with 'this gender stuff'? The major screw up was labour and the GRA.

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 17:10

I would place the Tories to the left of the Democrats.

OnGoldenPond · 22/01/2022 17:04

@Divebar2021

If you’re talking about the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate /mainstream centre right in America

Just as an aside did you think that President Trump was moderate/ mainstream centre right?

There is no left wing party in the US. The republicans are very far right, much more than our Tory party. The Democrats pretty much centre right, close to the Tories. This is after all the country where the Communist Party is a banned organisation.

I think we often don't realise here in the UK how little political diversity there is in the US.

OnGoldenPond · 22/01/2022 16:59

@jellyfrizz

'Ultraconservative' Iran:

www.dw.com/en/iran-how-transgender-people-survive-ultraconservative-rule/a-57480850

"..Tehran, has been dubbed one of the world's hubs for sex-reassignment surgery. Transgender individuals live and work with no legal barriers in the country. The government even helps with the costs of hormone medicine and gender reassignment surgery for those who want it."

Yep transing away the gay.
VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 16:53

I don’t see people who disagree with me as bad or immoral but when I was campaigning for brexit I received so much personal abuse from people on the left that it seemed clear to me that some on the left don’t just see me as someone they disagree with but more like someone they think is bad

you were a member of UKIP what did you expect, you were a member of a party that lied about the EU/immigration, scare mongered, demonized foreigners and encouraged racism. Hmm

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 16:45

why the hell do you think Self ID is a left thing? we have a Tory government and all this gender stuff started with them.

if you want to be tribal thats your problem, politics isnt a football team.

I will not vote Labour, Green etc because they are populist arseholes, I see no difference between them now and your Ukip and tories, lying rich people who dont give a crap about the people, the country etc all they care about is lying to get control so they can help themselves to the public purse.

I liked Corbyn and I last voted for TUSC at least they seemed different and talked about helping the poor and services.

joolzfromyork · 22/01/2022 16:21

Speaking of grift, rumors are swirling that Hillary "we came, we saw, he died" Clinton is going to run in 2024. I'm sure you'll be thrilled that someone renowned for destroying nations - and therefore not at all extreme - might be the next President.

Hmmmm ... thinking Kamala might have an opinion on that

Personally, I dont mind who wins the Presidency next time round ... so long as, whoever it is, they aren't a Fascist.

LemonSwan · 22/01/2022 16:17

@SantaClawsServiette
@Lovelyricepudding

Yes I agree. I do think the torys are the least authoritarian atm. And yes the SNP are bloody scary. My mum is scottish and she often refers to Sturgeon as Nic Hitler.

I think a lot of the swing are people who align more with libertarian/authoritarian lines than left/ right (even if subconsciously rather than recognising it).

And as we all know its the swing who decides every election.

I really wish the left would sort itself out because like a PP stated - I agree that change is important to combat corruption and instigate reassessment of whats working and whats not.

And better still I would really like us to have a more direct democracy like Switzerland where we have to vote on policies & laws directly. Because as PP have also said, all these parts of the spectrum get in the way of policy direction, and cross party/ whole country progress is not as much as a pipe dream as I think some would like to believe. Most people do genuinely want everyone to have a better and easier life.

Lovelyricepudding · 22/01/2022 11:40

The quadrants on party analysis seem to recognise UK left parties as more libertarian and torys as more authoritarian

I think the degree of authoritarianism of the parties can be seen by the behaviour of their MPs/MSPs in parliament. By this measure the Tories are one of the least authoritarian parties - with rebels and splits across the party and government having to convince it's parliamentarians which way to vote. In contrast the SNP is scarily authoritarian. There must be no dissent and all must follow the parties lead.

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