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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am now very confused by the gender debate

90 replies

Workin8til6 · 17/01/2022 17:22

So. I am not up to date with all the latest debates. I’m not on Twitter for a start. But none of it seems to make any logical sense. I am left leaning and all my friends are very liberal. I think I must be missing something in this whole debate, I’m genuinely open to being told I’ve completely misunderstood.

A friend and I are part of the same Facebook group which is for buying and selling kids clothes. Someone made a comment about looking for clothes for a boy “that are quite girly” because their son likes girly colours and patterns. I thought “what a stupid thing to say, kids can wear anything, who cares”. Friend comments and starts off by saying something similar. Talks about how colours are for everyone, boys and girls don’t have to wear different things, everyone can just have their own likes and dislikes. Fine. But then goes on to say “maybe as an adult he will choose to identify as a different gender, or maybe he will be gender fluid, sometimes people have different genders to the one they are assigned at birth”.

Huh? I don’t get it. So we are telling kids that it’s ok for boys to like ballet and pink and girls to like blue and football. I can get on board with that. Also saw a campaign trying to remove girls and boys signage from kids clothing shops which I am all for. I thought this was all to remove outdated crappy stereotypes and to make everything accessible to everyone. But then we are saying that as an adult if you like frilly pink things then you should/could identify as a woman? Or if you’re into football and beer than you should identify as a man? So it seems like the removal of shitty stereotypes in childhood is actually just to make it easier for people to be “gender fluid”? Surely this is all just based on stereotypes too.

If not and it’s something deeper than that… what is it based on? If it’s not just surface level likes and dislikes? What does it mean to identify as a woman or man? I don’t identify as anything. I am biologically female. I am an adult female which means I’m a woman. Being a woman for me doesn’t mean liking pink and makeup and dresses. My identity is my personality and my own personal likes and dislikes and as far as I was aware none of this is anything to do with whether I’m male or female. It’s not even to do with whether you’re attracted to males or females because obviously women can be straight or gay or bi and men can be straight or gay or bi. So in what scenario does someone need to identify as a different gender?

Have I gone wrong somewhere? I previously thought we were making headway by removing outdated stereotypes. But now it sounds like people are being encouraged to identify as a different gender if they don’t conform to those old stereotypes? It seems people like my friend are simultaneously supporting the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood as well as the reinforcement of them in adulthood. Sorry this is probably sounding very naive.

OP posts:
MiladyBerserko · 17/01/2022 19:23

Fasten your seatbelt OP, this is a difficult journey. Your logic is good, you are fair minded, you are asking reasonable questions but you will soon be called a bigot for not telling lies and asking such questions, by random people in life.

It's hardgoing, but you are in the right place to get the answers you seek - bloody brilliant women here....

LublinToDublin · 17/01/2022 19:20

[quote NannaMcPhoo]@Workin8til6

Yes I agree with you but I also think too much is blamed on stererotyping.[/quote]
We will only know that @NannaMcPhoo if stereotyping is removed first so any inherent sex biais might be discernible.

But as OP is saying, no sooner have there been there been steps to remove the stereotyping of tpys, clothes, jobs, interests etc. than they get angrily reinforced by much of the trans ideology Sad

Rightsraptor · 17/01/2022 19:16

Interested in frilly things - there's an image to conjour with this chilly evening. Men - cars Smile and women - frilly things Smile. Really, Nanna?

There do seem to be sex-based divisions in interests, likes & dislikes, inclinations. Everything I've ever read on the subject tells me males as a class are more risk-taking than females as a class. Nanna, this does not mean that women whose idea of a fun day is hurling themselves off cliffs or scuba diving are men. No. They are women who enjoy perilous activities.

Christienne · 17/01/2022 19:12

@NannaMcPhoo

Why do we have to assume everything is due to societal factors and stereotyping?

The fact of the matter is more men are interested in cars than women and more women are interested in frilly things than men. Why do we have to read meaning into any old shite?

Errrrr….
NannaMcPhoo · 17/01/2022 19:09

@Workin8til6

Yes I agree with you but I also think too much is blamed on stererotyping.

Hotcuppatea · 17/01/2022 19:07

Welcome to the rational side of the debate OP.

I think that people like your friend think they're being nice and progressive. In fact, they're being very very regressive.

Workin8til6 · 17/01/2022 19:02

@NannaMcPhoo that’s not what I’m saying, I’m saying that a) kids should be free to like whatever they want without anyone being bothered whether it’s for girls or boys and b) just because a woman likes cars doesn’t mean she’s actually male?

OP posts:
NannaMcPhoo · 17/01/2022 18:47

Why do we have to assume everything is due to societal factors and stereotyping?

The fact of the matter is more men are interested in cars than women and more women are interested in frilly things than men. Why do we have to read meaning into any old shite?

jellyfrizz · 17/01/2022 18:40

Yep, that's about it!

ArabellaScott · 17/01/2022 18:39

Have I gone wrong somewhere?

Nope. You're completely correct.

Flippanty · 17/01/2022 18:23

No you’re right. A lot of people’s issue with gender ideology is that it’s regressive as fuck. Children have absolutely no idea about gender stereotypes until we as a society enforce it on them. Of course a child is going to think they’re trans if they’re told that all the things they like are for the other sex.

Helleofabore · 17/01/2022 18:15

Nope OP. I think you see it clearly.

The emperor has no clothes.

And once you see it, you will never unsee it.

There are so many suggestions to help, but maybe the Stephen Nolan podcast (10 episodes but he covers a lot) may help.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09yk1fy

And this thread is a great resource for more links to read with articles, studies etc.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Dreamgoat · 17/01/2022 17:48

You're right OP. I always thought that moving towards a genderless world was the progressive option. Men wearing makeup and dresses, bring it on. It's not like skirts are inherently feminine - plenty of men around the world wear sarongs, kilts etc.

But now even a temporary inclination in a male toddler to put on an Elsa dress has people wondering whether their child is trans. A good friend of mine, an intelligent and highly educated woman, once worried out loud that her 3 year old son's favourite colour was purple, he liked sparkles and therefore his gender might not match his sex. I couldn't believe it.

It's not the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood, it's the enforcement of them, and it's regressive as fuck.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 17/01/2022 17:36

This exactly what I asked my primary school teacher friend.

GCITC · 17/01/2022 17:32

You are right. It doesn't make any logical sense, hence the 'No Debate' and 'Just Be Kind'.

There is no logical argument. It's all about feeling not rationality.

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