I am now very confused by the gender debate

You're asking the right (very obvious, imo!!) questions OP.

Sex and gender are different - fine.
How can a sex 'match' a gender? It's akin to saying your race matches your nationality.
If sex only refers to a body type how can your soul feel like it is one or the other? The sex stereotypes are so ingrained that people can't separate them.

I understand, on some level, people wanting to be the opposite sex.
I understand wanting to be/appear more masculine or feminine or a mixture.

None of this means you are and always were a 'gender' (which is not a sex) and should be treated as this sex for each and every circumstance.

Keep an eye on how genderists conflate sex and gender when asking questions. Once you see it, you can't un-see!

For those who find it odd that heterosexual men transition, read about Blanchard's transsexual typology which explains it. After reading that I gained so much clarity on the whole topic!

[quote JammyRedRooo]@Hathertonhariden I didn't know that. I thought most would or would hope to eventually.[/quote]
A lot of people don't know that, JammyRedRooo, I think the figures for those who don't are somewhere around 80-90%? Usually those who were heterosexual before transition and identify themselves as lesbian after transition. And they offend at same rates as heterosexual criminals, which is why keeping trans criminals out of women's prisons is so important. And why a lot of lesbians are giving up on lesbian dating apps..

@Hathertonhariden I didn't know that. I thought most would or would hope to eventually.

100% with you OP. It is mind boggling and regressive and illogical! I'm completely baffled.

I was raised by trendy lefty parents in the 70s/80s to believe that girls could do whatever they wanted and boys did not need to conform to reductive, damaging masculine stereotypes. Feels like we've gone completely backwards.

When my boys were little they would happily put on princess dresses, fairy wings, nail polish etc. Did I for one second think they were girls?? Of course not. Did I think this was normal healthy behaviour that I conciously didn't mock, or make a big deal of - yes absolutely. World's gone mad!

All of this talk of discomfort with one's body and gender dysphoria ignores the fact that the current concept of trans identity, which is being championed by Stonewall and those who want to reform the Gender recognition act, doesn't involve gender dysphoria at all. It is now considered rather old fashioned to hold the view that trans people are unhappy with their biological sex and so medically/socially transition in order to fit in as female or male. Rather, a trans woman can simply have the gender identity of 'woman', but have no gender dysphoria and be perfectly content with her male body including her penis. It is also old fashioned and 'medical gatekeeping' to assume that all trans people want or need medical transition - in fact, the GRA reform would enable trans people to legally become the other sex without any medical transition whatsoever.

[quote Workin8til6]@LittleWingSoul yes exactly. So if I reject gender based stereotypes then by that logic I also reject gender ideology. Where does that leave me?![/quote]
In what sense do you ask? Do you mean can you believe that sex-based stereotypes are damaging but also be on board with gender ideology? I think lots of people do. Takes some bending of language and meaning and lack of discourse and that overused turn of phrase 'critical thinking' but yes, I'm sure lots of people do!

Honestly I can't imagine having a different identity either, but that's what gender dysphoria is surely? We can't imagine it because we don't have it so it seems a completely alien concept. People transition to alleviate the discomfort that their biological bodies cause, not because they have a penis but like pink.

In short, OP is right and her friends are just a bit hard of thinking
and I think this is the issue, and I have been guilty of this myself- thinking-oh, stereotypes, bad, women in manual trades good, men in make up good, let a thousand flowers bloom- and then not thinking much further. Then suddenly, wham, you have men in women's prisons and children being medicated and lesbians being told to just get used to 'girl dick'. Oh and sports too.

So then you have another think.

But by this time there has been ideological capture of many cultural, professional and political organisations and the questions are ruled out of order.

And many people don't want to be out of order - maybe for good reasons like wanting to keep their job.

Other people just like the feeling of being counter cultural- but only slightly, they don't want to actually put any effort into understanding what is happening or challenge the new orthodoxy.

Sorry this came up in my active I didnt realise it was in the feminist topic, I only know one trans person so I'm no expert.

My gender identity is woman. But I dont think that means I have to subscribe to the societal standards that society has decided are for women. I hate wearing skirts. I'm going back to work early so DH is sharing my maternity leave. My favourite colour is blue. I'd rather go down the pub than out for cocktails with the girls. That's what I'm saying is bullshit, none of that stuff should be related to whether or not I'm a man or a woman. I always assumed trans people had dysphoria about their physical bodies rather than their interests. So someone feels they should have been born in a womans body therefore they identify as a woman, but the fact that they like frilly pink things should be irrelevant I guess?

Isn't it more about how you perceive your body rather than how "manly" you feel..?

Thank you for posting this OP. I have been equally confused!

I understand the point about removing gender stereotypes for children. Let boys wear pink dresses if they want to.. it doesn't mean they are trans or non-binary or gender-neutral or gender-fluid.

But I'm still confused about how this relates to adults who undergo gender reassignment. If I am born a man but decide as an adult that I am uncomfortable in my body, that I genuinely "feel" like I am a woman and want to have gender reassignment surgery, then, regardless of whether I like blue or pink clothes, I identify as a gender different to the one assigned at birth. What am I missing here..?

OP, you will get posters ( I think one has already popped up) to say you have misunderstood and that gender roles/stereotypes (liking pink, frilly dresses, long hair, makeup, etc) have NOTHING to do with, and are entirely separable, from 'gender identity', which isn't based on stereotypes. And so you will ask, "great, so what's gender identity then?" They will NEVER tell you. The reason they won't give you a straight answer about what gender identity is is because in truth gender identity is intimately tied to gender roles and stereotypes but there is an awareness that this is a bit politically incorrect, a bit awkward. It's not very 2022 to say that a person literally is a woman because they like lipstick and lingerie and crying at romance novels. How do I know this? Because trans women have come onto this thread, and I have spoken to them in person, and they have said so. They say they are very feminine, prefer girly things, like ribbons and lace and that is why they are a woman. Also, just read any article about a young trans child. Count the number of stereotypes. Every single article will say things like 'she wanted her hair short', 'she wanted to play with trucks', 'she wanted to play football with her brothers', 'she wanted Spiderman pajamas'. This is nothing but stereotypes.

It's also a lie because it contradicts what trans organisations themselves say about gender identity. Stonewall says that gender identity is an 'innate sense of your own gender', and they define 'gender 'as masculine or feminine and culturally determined. That...sounds exactly like gender identity aligns with stereotypes to me (also how can we have an innate sense of a cultural construct?)

The gender bread person, a very popular trans educational resource says that gender identity is how far on the scale you are of 'woman-ness' or 'man-ness' , "based on how much you align with what you understand to be the options for gender."This seems like gobbledygook, but if you read the in depth explainer that accompanies the graphic it says that gender identity is about whether you fit better into the social role of 'man' or 'woman'. Again, it mentions social roles. So the reality is that you are absolutely correct: gender identity is reducing men and women to 'people who align with femininity or masculinity', and if you think that sexist shite then you are out of date.

There are no personalities any more, just identities.

It is incredibly hurtful if people don't affirm my identity.

Apparently you now get 'trans-girls' who are 'tom-boys'.

Yes of course it’s regressive .

1950 . My 3 year old son wants to dress up as a princess but I told him that’s for girls and he needs to dress up as a cowboy. I don’t want everyone to laugh at him or think that he might be homosexual.

1990 . My 3 year old son wants to dress up as princess - that’s fine with us. It’s got nothing to do with his sexuality because he’s 3. It’s just clothes. And if he is gay when he’s older - that’s cool.

2022 . My 3 year old son wants to dress up as a princess . So we need to send him to a psychiatrist right now, get him on drugs when he’s 12 and and have his penis cut off and sterilise him when he’s 16.

Yes of course he will never be able to experience sexual pleasure in the same way as most adults and about 99.9% of the population will never consider him as a sexual partner.

And his risk of dying by suicide will be 22 times higher than for others of his age.

And he will be part of a great big medical experiment on heavy duty drugs for life. Drugs that are being used off label and we have no idea what the side effects might be after 20 or 30 years .

But at least we will have avoided any chance that he might be gay.

Please Tell me how that’s not regressive and homophobic.

Gender identity and gender roles aren't the same - there are trans women that are more masculine/have stereotypically 'Male' interests and vice versa. I hate having to describe them as such though it should just be 'interests'!

I hate 'girls' and 'boys' clothes for kids! I remember shopping with my friends DD who loves dinosaurs and in one shop there were personalised dinosaur pencils for boys and unicorns for girls... she was gutted! It's so regressive and crap and shouldn't have anything to do with your gender identity!

Basically Gender Ideology cannot function without the promotion of sex-based stereotypes!