Screw C4 drama

What a bizarre storyline! Did they say beginning/end that TM here don't go into male prison because of the risk to them?

How many TM even are in prison? I mean how often does this come up? And that the TM has gone through full hormonal surgical transition? (I assume I mean that must have been story obv..?).

And also 100% pass even in v close living with bunch of men, sharing showers, maybe cell?

Pass in terms of face, voice. Body... All considered together by others instinctively including height, shoulder width, hips?, hand foot size, walk, stance etc.

And I mean what about loads of massive stuff like-
Total impeccable knowledge and execution of all male rules of interaction. Including v subtle.
Natural automatic reaction to surprise, fear, distress, humour (smile laugh snort etc), a fright, I mean...

I just can't see how even a brilliant actor could keep that up for hours every day.

I was watching this tonight. There’s no way a female would be placed in a male prison (or want to be there, apart from in a tv drama or Twitter fantasist). There’s also no way that the other inmates wouldn’t know - even if this person has a “penis”, it would be constructed using an arm or leg skin graft that would leave very noticeable scars (along with scars from a double mastectomy).

The whole “born in the wrong body” schtick was abysmal.

It is insulting to men & women to pretend that a penis or vagina can be constructed from other body parts, and be indistinguishable from the “real thing”.

I can only guess at what C4’s agenda is with this storyline (of course I know the agenda, which is to normalise the idea of men in women’s prisons by making it seem like women can safely be in male prisons).

The strength thing is interesting.

I knew from my brother when he started puberty when I was maybe 13 about the strength differential.

When one of our occasional bickering shoving fights he pushed me and we were both shocked when I went flying across room. Unspoken agreement never did again. Just shouted

Also from going to pubs clubs from 16. None of these incidents anything other than fun/trivial.

Some blokes carrying me (both thought hilarious). Sometimes when a bloke picks you up and moves you (annoying).

Once in pub random bloke picked me up and put me behind him. I opened mouth to say wtf, glass smashes near me and never seen anything like it whole pub about 2k people all tightly packed in huge bar area started full on fighting. I said thanks to him, obv! He stood in front blocking flying debris, holding off pushing from surging crowds. What a great bloke. Could I have held off surging crowds? Nah squished.

So I knew...

But I didn't KNOW. It was theoretical iyswim.

While I was sympathetic to the character, I found the whole thing quite bizarre, the moral seemed to be that because Troy was ok after a fight with an extremely muscular man (? - I genuinely couldn't tell if it was supposed to be part of the storyline that the opponent was going easy on Troy or somehow only pretending to fight him?? Because no way would anyone not at peak muscle be walking away from that fight if it was a real aggressive fight) and - one of the officers actually said that proved he was a man?

The absolute state of that thinking. No wonder male violence is so high.

Somewhere around those tweets by the criminologist (who is being investigated for “transphobia” atm) a transman wrote that they would want to be in a men’s prison if they are in that situation. There were obviously a lot of people explaining that they really really would not.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

Transmen are biological women. Women don't have penises.

The outliers do not disprove the point that the vast majority of men and stronger than the vast majority of women.

Patricio Manuel is in the outlier category and on a performance enhancing drug (testosterone). Prior to transitioning Patricio was a five-time national amateur champion, as well as competing in the 2012 Women's U.S. Olympics Trials. So a very talented and experienced female boxer. Patricio stepped into the ring as a man for one match against a winless opponent (Hugo Aguilar). So a very experienced boxer, on testosterone, fighting agains a super featherweight male who appears not to have won a single fight in their boxing career to date. In this instance, skill and experience would be a massive advantage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wins" in the plural as Patricio seems to have not returned to the ring since the match against Hugo in 2018.

This is a fucking ghastly concept. If feminine presenting males are in danger in male prisons, what the fuck would happen to actual females in a male prison?

I am so fucking fucking fucked off by this pish.

I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?
Third spaces please!!!!

There was a thread over Christmas (subsequently deleted) where a woman asserted that she was able to punch as strongly, if not stronger as 80-90% of men. She admitted to being a small woman but was still completely confident that her punching strength would be comparable. She was not a trained fighter of any sort. Bonkers. I truly hope she's never in a position to find out how big the strength difference is in reality, even against small men who look 'harmless'.

I was punched, square in the jaw, by a boy when we were both 16. He was very skinny and only a few inches taller than me. Put it this way, I’ve spent the rest of my life being very aware and avoidant of male violence.

Only a woman who had not been on the receiving end of male violence could even fleetingly think she would stand a chance up against a man. Lucky her!

Patricio Manuel is a trans man boxer who competes and wins against biological males. Those of you insisting it's totally implausible a man could ever beat a woman may be right, but the thing is we're not talking about a woman here, we're talking about a trans man who has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has male pattern strength and musculature. I'm not saying the scene was greatly executed or super realistic or anything, but it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend a trans man on T is no different to a woman.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

It was utterly brutal. Was the message supposed to be that a man can punch and kick a woman including three times to the head and she'll be fine? Is it woke for a man to write a drama where it's supposed to be positive, acceptable and progressive for a woman to be savagely beaten by a man if she provoked him? Screw all the women who know what the reality of that actually is. Who cares about upsetting women who have been beaten by men, gender feels are so much more important than the reality of women's broken skulls from a man's fist.

The propaganda started years ago, with sweet and gentle Hayley Cropper. Hence the prevailing view in society that transwomen could never be violent AGPs and fetishists

Who at the time was lionized by the LGBTQ community

Julie Hesmondhalgh would be vilified now

I have been looking for a thread about this show on here and on other sites, but the title of the show makes google searches difficult as you can imagine so I'm glad to see it talked about here at least.

I took Troy saying he didn't have anything in common with them to mean that a)they were all trans women or b) he was the only one who had fully transitioned/had a GRC.

There was a thread over Christmas (subsequently deleted) where a woman asserted that she was able to punch as strongly, if not stronger as 80-90% of men. She admitted to being a small woman but was still completely confident that her punching strength would be comparable. She was not a trained fighter of any sort. Bonkers. I truly hope she's never in a position to find out how big the strength difference is in reality, even against small men who look 'harmless'.

Every time I see this, I yearn to get hold of these posters and put them and some other random men and women up against some plastic martial arts breaker boards.

These are reusable plastic boards martial arts clubs use so students can test their kicking and punching power against something standardised. They are colour-coded for strength, with white being weakest and black being strongest. It is normal for men to be able to break through multiple black boards in one punch. It is not normal for women to be able to do so. Women have to develop technique to maximise their punching power to get through one black board. Men have to develop technique so they can get through a stack of black boards at the same time.

I think the messages were really confused. Very unreal because a trans “man” would never be housed in a male prison, in uk at least. There was mention of all the transwomen being housed in the vulnerable prisoners wing, where many of them were sex offenders. Troy did not want to be with them as “he had nothing in common, not the same and “his” crime was not sex offending”. And the validation was awful, in terms of stereotyping male behavior . Exactly the same as expecting women to validate stereotypical tw behaviour in prison. But served to bring out why women will be at risk from two and men won’t be from tm. But glad the sex offending rates were mentioned.

It's to be expected it will turn up in drama and fiction, given it's such a huge social change. What irks me is the insistence by some activists that only trans actors should get trans roles. Why? Nobody insists that gay men or lesbians should be played by actors who are actually gay or lesbian. Actors are there to pretend to be somebody else.

One thing that might put a stop to that is if they were taken at their word and told 'No, you can't be considered for this role, because the character isn't trans'. Doesn't seem to work like that, though.

I know it's fiction, so you can't exactly get too stressed, I mean Superman flies and there's a popular TV show where a boy turns into a dog on a regular basis.
Fiction isn't written to reflect reality.

However, when it comes to the portrayal of women and other groups in popular media, when you start to notice patterns, eg: virtually all directors are men and most writers are men and most female parts are one dimensional sexy/attractive/dumb bores, few female leads, most leads are men etc...

When something is a noticeable pattern, I think it's right to pick up on it, and it's obvious there is a glaring absence of feminist points of view in mainstream fiction.

It's becoming increasingly popular to feature trans roles which is a really good thing, diversity is great, we love diversity but the story lines are virtually all rigid "TWAW/TMAM" with no nuance.

So you get these strong tough manly TM having fights and matching up to their tough manly prison inmate, and soft flowery helpless TW who can't stand up for themselves at all, I mean what is all that, apart from total inforcement of, or even dependence on sex-based stereotypes?

Then there's the awful portrayals of trans children that completely white wash the actual harm being done there.

Nonetheless it's good trans people are getting more plot lines for themselves.

Awful. The whole thing! Won't be watching again.

I think I read somewhere that pound for pound men are 30% physically stronger. On the other hand women are more flexible than men.

So for sport it is unfair to have biological males compete against females in weightlifting etc, but biological females have an advantage in sports where flexibility is desired.

It's remarkable what people can convince themselves to believe out of social pressure. The Emperor's New Clothes is such a good story for that reason. I often see remarks on social media and under the line on news websites and have heard people saying similar in real life for decades - along the lines that

• if women think they're as good as men they should do all the same things without complaint, but of course they can't because they're weak (the men's rights view, depressingly often voiced by women as well)

or (flipside)

• of course women are as good as men and can do anything they can do, with the amazing extra superpower that we can get pregnant and give birth! Yay!

Different doesn't mean one is worse and one is better. Women's bodies are not the same as men's, and one of the differences is that men have greater physical strength. This is a fact, and it's astounding that anybody over the age of 4 tries to contradict it. Given that we are 50% of the human race, this is not some weird minority problem that can be ignored, and there's no moral dimension here. The world should be set up so that both sexes are valued and women's reproductive role and all that follows from that earns respect, not irritation and exclusion.