Gender nonsense will be the Tories secret weapon

Trans rights is a vote winner amongst the young, and no-one else really cares, if the Tories pursue an anti-trans agenda as an electoral strategy they'll end up a laughing stock like Alba and completely alienate the upcoming generations they so desperately need. So I kind of hope they do lol.

Yes, we know this. But there are plenty of people who will focus on the issues of employment rights, benefit cuts, cuts to public services & healthcare because they are directly impacted by these themselves.

Only women are negatively impacted by self-id & the erasure of women's rights. This is MY priority so the Labour Party will not get my vote again until they hear what women are saying about this.

most of the time, those rights (to work, healthcare etc) are more important in their day to day lives.

Yes. Like knowing you can request a female only heath care professional and confidently get one. Like having a single sex toilet and where needed, shower facility, knowing they are in fact single sex.

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you?

It's not about not liking trans people - some people who have a trans identity are female. Regardless of the fact that they choose to present themselves in the world as their idea of what a man is, I include them in my advocacy for women's rights because they are women.

What I want to be sure of when we talk about women's rights and policies that impact women is that we are actually talking about wome, not women AND a subset of males who want to be treated as women.

I was a Labour Party member until recently and I quit over this. I didn't vote at the last election. They have, with a few individual exceptions who are not being supported by the leadership, been completely captured by this ideology, ironically one of the most conservative belief systems to have arisen in the UK in my lifetime. If they don't get some adults back in the room soon, they can fuck off, as far as I'm concerned.

Genderism harms women's rights but women clearly have all sorts of rights it doesn't affect, and for most people, most of the time, those rights (to work, healthcare etc) are more important in their day to day lives.

Right, but those unaffected rights are not women's rights. They are rights that everyone has. That doesn't mean they're not valuable and important of course. But it does mean that they're not women's rights.

As an analogy, my local swimming pool (still) has women's sessions and general sessions. Of course women can and do swim in the general session. But just because there are women making use of that session doesn't make it a women's swimming session.

But there can’t be rights for women only if the definition of women
Includes men. How can that not be the case?

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you?

Imagine being someone who pops up on this board frequently (always just to plop down a tedious little waggy finger comment and then disappear) and yet seemingly hasn’t managed to acquire any kind of grasp on the broad and complex issues facing women and children, instead coming out with this simplistic and unintelligent nonsense.

"By definition, if any man can say he's a woman, there's no women's rights"

I'm GC, but I don't think that this kind of hyperbolic wordplay is helpful - it looks as irrational to me as the kinds of things that genderists say. Genderism harms women's rights but women clearly have all sorts of rights it doesn't affect, and for most people, most of the time, those rights (to work, healthcare etc) are more important in their day to day lives. To say it means that THERE'S NO WOMEN'S RIGHTS just seems silly.

By definition, if any man can say he's a woman, there's no women's rights, there's just people's rights. Which usually means rights which benefit men, if they don't benefit men then they're not seen as people's rights.

This is the nub of it. Introducing self-ID means erasing "men" and "women" as policy categories altogether. The implications are terrifying.

Clearly the Labour Party are too stupid to see this. But strangely I think the Tories are too. The Tories are divided on the issue of self-ID, and even the ones who are against it seem mainly to be against it because they realise it's unpopular, and that it's a stick to beat Labour with, not because they understand the full implications of it.

It does amaze me that our politicians, who we pay to understand the consequences of adopting particular policies, just haven't grasped the import of this issue.

I'm torn between wanting to rejoin the Labour Party so I can attend the local meetings and hear what's been said on this, and not wanting to help bolster their numbers or give them money currently. I may rejoin because I think the environment is now safer to speak up on this. When I quit, it was because I felt I would be ostracised locally if I did question the TWAW mantra.

I emailed my local Labour MP in support of Rosie Duffield last year asking if she supported her and if so, why she hadn't spoken up. I cc'd Rosie in. I actually received an email from Rosie thanking me and saying that this particular MP has been a good friend and supports her in private. I had to follow up with the MP for her response and it was a few weeks later before she replied and it was a very cage-y, trying to be "balanced" response. Obviously, she is afraid to honestly say where she stands on this, so I guess the environment in the local Labour Party groups is not conducive to gender critical views. I participated in the Sex Matters campaign and had a copy of Trans sent to her.

The framing of protecting the rights females need to then protect themselves against sexist discrimination due to their sexed body as 'you not liking trans people', really needs to go. It is so old and tired.

If you cannot post something other than that and cannot show just exactly HOW the conflicts between the two groups can be resolved, then you are obviously in the group of people who deny there are conflicts at all.

And if you can look a woman who has lost the access to the single sex space that she needed to heal, or the woman/girl who has been exposed to a penis in an area that they had confidence would be without penises, or the woman/girl who misses out on their sporting chance and declare that they should suck it up because there were NO CONFLICTS, they you have obviously have little empathy for anyone but transitioned males.

[quote bellinisurge]@ScribblingPixie , I have no doubt that the Tories can't be trusted with women's rights. That they would exploit it for their own benefit. I despise them. And I despise Labour for not getting a proper grip on this.[/quote]
Quite. Which is why so many of us are currently struck with a sort of voting paralysis. Also, where did the OP say they didnt like trans people? Another of those silly leaps that gender enthusiasts like to perform.

I don't think the Labour Party have a clue how angry some of us are about this.

the tories wont bother to resolve it properly - just keep us running in this purgatory. Because its their card to re-election over and over.
Yeah, it reminds me of how the Democrats never seemed to me to be that interested in putting abortion rights on a firmer footing when they were in power. I'm no expert on US politics but, form this side of the Atlantic, it always struck me as a very convenient way of keeping women voters in line.

If exploiting voters on this issue means reforming the GRA, rejecting self-ID, clarifying that single-sex means single-sex, ensuring that male prisoners are not housed in women's prisons, ensuring that must schools inform parents in situations where their child is saying they are now a boy/girl, regulating the medicalisation of children, banning any surgery related to gender dysphoria on the under-18s, then I'm happy to be exploited.

Its irritating because whilst their is deadlock on the issue in other parties - the tories wont bother to resolve it properly - just keep us running in this purgatory. Because its their card to re-election over and over.

[quote bellinisurge]@ScribblingPixie , I have no doubt that the Tories can't be trusted with women's rights. That they would exploit it for their own benefit. I despise them. And I despise Labour for not getting a proper grip on this.[/quote]
Exactly. I'll never vote Tory, but I'm utterly despairing that the other parties seem to be sabotaging themselves.

I read something via Dominic Cummings about them discussing whether to use it before the last election but decided against. My concern would be that it would be scare tactics: they would just use women for the votes without anything substantial being done. If genuine policies were introduced to protect women's rights and, mind-blowing idea, actually improve them they would have my vote (with a different leader who I actually thought had some integrity).

And yes, this is an easy win for the Tories, deflecting from their very obvious failings.