the breast milk trade

@Bindelj I can recommend "the politics of breastfeeding" book for some other political / capitalist / feminist / historical backgrounds.

And I was given the following feedback!

I appreciate you probably think breastmilk is disgusting and worthless, but not everyone shares your view.

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
complete ignorance of the reality of breastfeeding and pumping for women's bodies.

What the actual fuck? I’ve breastfed and pumped with my woman body as have many of my friends and female family members so I’m far from ignorant. No one on this thread should be saying that to another mother posting here. Just because we have different opinions and experiences, that doesn’t make any of us completely ignorant.[/quote]
Someone called me ignorant upthread and you didn't mention it then...how odd.

Is it because I disagree with you so you felt it an appropriate label?

Empress Cixi your reasoning is hilarious. No one is going to ´help out’ another woman’s baby at the expense of there own child unless some seriously unethical economics are involved. Woman formula feed because they can’t breastfeed or pump or because they don’t want to breastfeed or pump. No one is going to pump milk voluntarily and without economic benefit just for that milk to go to another woman’s baby whilst deciding their own baby would be better off formula fed. That’s nonsense.

As I said in my initial post. Not allowing the commercial sale of breastmilk would create a legal situation almost identical to the legal situation in Japan in regards to artificial insemination.

I reject the comparison with your selected story about two people having sex for the purposes of having a baby to this thread which is about the commercialisation of yet another resource that comes from a woman. The lack of a legal framework to allow donor gametes in Japan is far from the OP and the comparison with the commercial sale of dairy milk a closer one, again, in line with the OP.

No, I do not think women are cows. As I've made clear, I do not think a woman should be compelled to sell her breast milk, so you are, as others have done, wilfully misinterpreting my comments and also refusing to address the question posed for context.

Women who want breastmilk should be told ‘no’ just like women in Japan who want artificial insemination are being told no’

No. Men should be told no and milk for a baby, should go to the baby it is made for . Failing that it could go to a baby but not men who want it because they read something in a body builder magazine or because they want to indulge in a fetish.

If the milk goes to a baby which is wasn't made for them there should be a priority system which allows it to go to those who need it most, based on the benefits. This already happens through the hospitals and units which manage breast milk donation.

something which has great value. Instead these women are to be encouraged to give it away for free.

Again you are apportioning monetary value to a woman making her a resource and I ask again, seeing as you continue to refer to your Japanese sperm story, and seeing as you have not yet replied, why is a man's sperm considered more valuable of he has a degree?

Sure, donating for premature babies is a wonderful thing. I am all for it.

But how long do you do it for? Are you weaning your own child to produce milk for donation? Are you putting your own child on formula and selling/donating your milk?

And their baby will be missing out on that breast milk opportunity. So, no, they are not suffering and if it is being donated to premature babies, then those babies needs could likely be higher.

Can the the same the said about someone else's healthy child, or a body builder? Or is that mother's milk for their own child not valued for extending that child's access to breast milk.

I know I relied on my frozen supply to extend my child's access to breast milk when I could no longer continue to breast feed. I would expect that I am not alone.

Prem babies don't consume very much, either. We're not talking 500ml a day here.

And having grown up milking cows, as well as then expressing my own milk, I think that the comparison is absolutely clear.

It might be uncomfortable to some people to think about, but it is the reality of the situation.

Why would a breastfeeding mother pump milk and then not freeze it for extending the availability of breast milk that is available for their child? Milk produced for that particular child from that child's own mother. Milk that that particular child's developing digestive system is accustomed to.

It seems a strange case to argue as being beneficial in any way to the child.

Pretty words.

She will do it for the same reason women wet-nursed, but hopefully with better outcomes for her own baby as we have formula now. If you offer a poor woman sufficient money, sufficient to pay for formula, she may well decide to formula feed and have money left over for the rent. Just as women fed an aristocrat's baby instead of their own because the money meant they could meet their children's other needs.

But you are exploiting her poverty so that she, a poor woman whose child is already disadvantaged, chooses to give up breastfeeding. Your child, with a parent who is rich enough to pay for 21st century wet nursing, fares well at that baby's expense.

Capitalism being what it is, normalising such arrangements will lead to a drop in the income women get from it.

Such a surprise to see so many people who claim to be women but who speak just like MRAs on this tread about the commodification of women.

Their misrepresentation of others' words and their obvious deliberate obtusity is frankly embarrassing.

Why would a woman who had decided that formula fitted in better with her lifestyle decide to keep pumping?

To help out a mother who cannot breastfeed but would like for her baby to be fed breastmilk. That would be why, and to my mind, it would be exploitation to tell this woman she must give the milk away for free and cannot get a penny in compensation at all. But the point is, surely women are adults with agency and can be trusted to have this as a choice they can make if they want to? Who are we to decide women can’t have this choice?

And no, this is nothing like prostitution at all. Prostitution is shown to be exceedingly harmful to women in all forms. Selling your own breastmilk doesn’t leave you with PTSD, STIs, nor does it carry a high risk of being killed by your customer.

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
complete ignorance of the reality of breastfeeding and pumping for women's bodies.

What the actual fuck? I’ve breastfed and pumped with my woman body as have many of my friends and female family members so I’m far from ignorant. No one on this thread should be saying that to another mother posting here. Just because we have different opinions and experiences, that doesn’t make any of us completely ignorant.[/quote]
Have you, aye.

Why would a woman who had decided that formula fitted in better with her lifestyle decide to keep pumping?

It's of a piece with the claim yesterday that a woman who had decided to stop pumping and use formula would throw away the milk she'd already expressed.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
complete ignorance of the reality of breastfeeding and pumping for women's bodies.

What the actual fuck? I’ve breastfed and pumped with my woman body as have many of my friends and female family members so I’m far from ignorant. No one on this thread should be saying that to another mother posting here. Just because we have different opinions and experiences, that doesn’t make any of us completely ignorant.

So that she gives her baby the formula they're not willing to give to their baby

Again, most women seeking to buy breastmilk are doing so because their baby has an intolerance to formula and they themselves cannot breastfeed. And even if it were a mother who prefers breastmilk buying from a mother who prefers formula. So what? It’s their choice. Formula is perfectly fine, is it not? So why should a woman who prefers breastmilk but cannot breastfeed be forced to use formula while another mother who prefers formula be banned from helping out a mother who prefers breastmilk?

Both formula and breastmilk are perfectly valid choices, but what isn’t valid in my mind is telling women who cannot breastfeed tough shit, you don’t get a choice. Don’t care that Sue up the road is willing to pump and sell you breastmilk, I’m going to protect you and Sue by forcing you to use formula. Because I’ve decided you don’t deserve to have that choice most mothers have.

Of course, if a woman wants to feed her child formula because that’s better for her lifestyle, why does she have to stop her breastmilk? Why can’t she decide to pump and sell it?

Agency, agency, agency, coupled with complete ignorance of the reality of breastfeeding and pumping for women's bodies.

It really is a prostitution thread, to a T. Everyone take screenshots of Empress's post for a mum friend who is in the thick of 3am feeds. The laugh will help her!

Why are you so bent on denying women the freedom to choose what they want to feed their babies and do with their breastmilk?

You have milk banks that severely restrict who can get breast milk for their baby. This matches with Japan where you have only one artificial insemination clinic and it is severely restricted as to who can access it.

Women who want breastmilk should be told ‘no’ just like women in Japan who want artificial insemination are being told no’. But the Japanese government telling women ‘no’ hasn’t stopped them, nor will it if the U.K. government tells women ‘no’ to breastmilk.

Breastmilk is being sold over social media. Sperm donors are advertising themselves over social media despite it being illegal, so we can expect that breastmilk would continue to be sold illegally over social media as well if a ban came into effect.

In both scenarios, the infant involved is most at risk in a legal framework that bans the two. In the case of sperm donors, the baby can end up being orphaned and put up for adoption, going into state care. In the case of breastmilk, there will be zero regulation on hygiene and safety resulting in cases of infant deaths due to bad breastmilk.

The situation in Japan shows what happens when you try and ban and severely restrict access to something that is already going on, and which many woman do want as a choice for themselves in regards to being a mother.

And no, humans are not cows. You know why?
Because we have selectively bred cows whose udders respond to the suction of milking machines. Before that, we selectively bred cows for handmilking for thousands of years.

Cows that were not "good milkers" i.e. they could feed and nourish a calf but didn't release much milk into a bucket, were killed for meat when the farmer had a better cow.

In this scenario, human women are the original wild oxen. Some women release milk in response to suction. A great many don't.

What on earth could be horrendous about a richer person thinking that breastmilk is healthier for their baby than formula, and then offering a poorer woman enough money to incentivise her to give them her milk instead of to her own child. So that she gives her baby the formula they're not willing to give to their baby.

It's her choice!

The milk from a mothers breast is her milk. It is her choice what she wants to do with it. She can stop it, and formula feed. She can breastfeed. She can breastfeed and pump in order to return to work earlier. She can breastfeed and pump to donate some to a milk bank.

Why is the choice of she can breastfeed and pump to sell to a mother mother who cannot breastfeed or pump so morally abhorrent that it should be banned? I can understand why many women would not want to do this, but I think there is no reason why we should regulate a woman’s body to ban this choice from all women.

I think it is abhorrent to tell mothers that the only way they can help another mother out who cannot breastfeed or pump is to give it away for free to a milk bank and the milk bank then owns the milk and can strictly restrict which mothers can then obtain the milk for their babies. Usually, milk banks only allow mothers of very premature babies to access the milk they have.

So why is it ok to tell mothers if you want to help another mother you have to give your milk away for free. As if breastmilk were worthless, and the effort and physical drain to produce erased. Why is that the only acceptable choice? And why is it ok to tell mothers who cannot breastfeed or pump and do not meet milk bank requirements that they don’t get any choice at all but must use formula?

What is so wrong about a mother wanting to help another mother selling her milk at a reasonable price to compensate her for her effort and physical investment? What is so wrong about a mother who cannot breastfeed or pump wanting to have the choice to feed her baby breastmilk like other mothers do? How is this fair?

The idea of banning it comes from a place of wanting to control women’s bodies and their breastmilk. It’s a patriarchal thing to do and as per the usual patriarchal viewpoint, the arguments here are saying it’s for the “protection” of the women selling breastmilk. Protection from what? The ability to be monetarily compensated for something which has great value. Instead these women are to be encouraged to give it away for free.

So what? It’s that mothers choice is it not? And isn’t formula a “ perfectly fine” option for a baby? The only reason anyone could feel offended by this is if they think formula is not perfectly fine and think the baby is being harmed by being fed formula.

Traditional values of unrestrained capitalism, ahoy. The cobbler's child goes barefoot. The wet nurse's baby goes hungry.

When are you starting a thread about how you think parents should be able to send their kids to earn their keep in a factory instead of this school lark?