the breast milk trade

If it's parents- then they need to be told "no"- your baby will be perfectly fine on formula. If it's body builders- then they need to be told "no" - there are plenty of other options available.

Again, just saying no will not stop women who want to sell their excess breast milk on the side. And why should we as a society ban these women from selling their breastmilk?

Beyond accepting donations from mothers in maternity hospitals to use for premature babies there is absolutely no need for breast milk to be given to any baby (or person) other than the mother's own child

Who are you to tell other mothers that they don’t need to buy breastmilk, or should not buy breastmilk for their baby? And I think saying you can give away your breastmilk for free but you cannot earn a penny doing it, because that’s “abhorrent” is in fact a thinly veiled justification to exploit women by denying them any money while still demanding/pressuring breast milk from them. It’s a strange sort of morality to insist women cannot earn for something as valuable as breastmilk and then say that’s not exploitation when it manifestly is.

And frankly, not every full term baby is “fine” on formula. There are many mothers who cannot breast feed but want breast milk for a full term baby for various reasons of their own such as the fact it is superior to formula, and many babies do have intolerances or bad reactions to formula. And you want to tell them “no” by what right do you have to step in and stop a fully adult woman from selling her breastmilk to another mother?

Your breastmilk is like your poo?

Wow. Ok.

I'm sure there is a man somewhere who would probably buy your poo too.

But selling pumped breast milk doesn't give buyers access to your body. I pump milk and would happily sell it. It wouldn't feel any different to selling my poo!

All work is exploitative of parts of our bodies - our brains, our hands, our legs, our eyes and ears..

I disagree.

Being milked, penetrated...having eggs harvested under general anesthetic. None of these exploitative processes of the female body even remotely comparable to having an actual job (that you can resign from) like being a receptionist, a taxi driver, a dentist or a plumber.

I don't have someone attach a machine to my body or have a penis penetrate me at my desk job. In fact I had a health and safety assessment just to make sure I sat comfortably and safely to reduce risk of repetitive strain injury and was made to complete a compulsory assessment. I signed a contract recognised under employment law and have employee rights.

Should we apply consumer laws to breast milk, offer refunds if the product isn't satisfactory and regulate this in the same way we run Dairies? Maybe it could be delivered to your door by Milk and More?.

So far "criminalising" - apply Nordic model rules. The buyer is the one committing the illegal act.

As a NMN supporter I agree. Otherwise I really don't know where it ends. How far do we go with the shrug of shoulders and "well it happens so we might as well regulate it"?

BUT there is a catch to the idea that we will see lots of impoverished modern wet nurses - since that doesn't really reflect the demographics of who breastfeeds now.

Women from poor backgrounds are far less likely to breastfeed.

You might, weirdly find, that incentivising breastmilk production as a job would put up breastfeeding rates which could have unintended positive health benefits.

I certainly am very hesitant at the idea, but I also think it needs to be considered and thought about very carefully for multiple reasons.

Hm, well I wouldn't buy it but maybe I ought to look into selling it for cash... would probably have stopped by now but I've still got some baby weight to lose and the pumping helps.... I'm an academic by the way, not impoverished!

I agree that the customers are unlikely to be 'normal' parents
wrt health food obsessives, I'm wondering where vegans would stand on this...

absolutely, the buyer should be criminalised

I am not normalising exploitation in any way. In fact, banning the sale of breast milk would actually allow more exploitation of the vulnerable not prevent it. This is because it is already happening and I don’t see any such ban actually being enforced in a way that doesn’t not criminalise the women selling their milk. Which is ridiculous to criminalise

But why is there a need at all to sell breast milk? Beyond accepting donations from mothers in maternity hospitals to use for premature babies there is absolutely no need for breast milk to be given to any baby (or person) other than the mother's own child.

Who is the customer base for this? If it's parents- then they need to be told "no"- your baby will be perfectly fine on formula. If it's body builders- then they need to be told "no" - there are plenty of other options available.

So far "criminalising" - apply Nordic model rules. The buyer is the one committing the illegal act.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I also misunderstood as your first post didn't say the child wasn't breastfeeding, it just said the woman was lactating and had a 5 year old.

I, too, hope she left him.

Getting off topic a bit here but it's really not that different than all the horrible men who coerce their wives into dressing up as school girls, waxing off every pube or having anal sex. Men think their orgasms are the most important thing in the world.

In terms of breastfeeding being commercialised, I have mixed feelings. All work is exploitative of parts of our bodies - our brains, our hands, our legs, our eyes and ears... yet I know that if we give a financial value to some breastmilk (for donation) while simultaneously devaluing the importance of a responsive feeding relationship with one's own children, it will be the younger, poorer, less educated, more precarious mother-baby dyads who miss

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I am not normalising exploitation in any way. In fact, banning the sale of breast milk would actually allow more exploitation of the vulnerable not prevent it. This is because it is already happening and I don’t see any such ban actually being enforced in a way that doesn’t not criminalise the women selling their milk. Which is ridiculous to criminalise.

And you are conflating breast milk with blood, organs and even ivory! No one is killing women and then pumping their breasts dry! For gods sake you paint a broad brush by classifying a poacher killing elephants for ivory trade to be even remotely similar to a mum selling her extra breast milk.

Empress,

Normalising the exploitation of women's bodily processes is not a victimless decision. Humans selling organs, blood or milk should be something we find abhorrent, not "acceptable as long as it's regulated".

Killing elephants for ivory shouldn't become acceptable if we regulate it, and nor should farming human women for milk.

Great idea, @Thelnebriati.

Can we agree that 'X may be a red flag and should be investigated for safeguarding' and move on?

It is a red flag, @newnamenewyear. Lacation without breastfeeding means you need to rule out a pituitary tumour.

Yes, you are correct, you have misunderstood.

You have to know this is already going on.

Yes, of course.

I see the argument of saying when something already happens we should apply regulation and provide a framework for checks and balances, but by doing this we also legitimise the process, by recognising it as a legal and morally fair and sound way to make money. This can apply to all kinds of debates, from the legalisation of marijuana to prostitution.

It's the age old argument of what we accept as being adults making autonomous decisions, (within a patriarchal society where we understand women can make money from their bodies) against whether we say women shouldn't be able to use their bodies to make money as that is morally rejected, (as women are human beings and not a collections of body parts to be shared, sold, penetrated milked or harvested for organs or eggs).

For me, in this area specifically, this is on a scale of milk and eggs being harvested (milk and eggs...already sounds like a farm) and sold, to live uterus implants, to the renting of woman for surrogacy and the sex trade.

Though women are involved in these processes there is always a man, somewhere at the top making all the money.

It was this bit that I objected to - it sounds like you're saying the act of BFing a 5 year old should be seen as a "red flag for serious issues".

I had a colleague, a million years ago, who was concerned about her patient who mentioned in passing that she was still lactating. The child was 5.

Red flag for serious issues, so she mentioned in passing about how worried she was for this woman in the staff room.

I don't understand how you can say I didn't even mention long-term breastfeeding as this reads as an attack on long term BFing. Unless - how I've understood it is not how you meant it?

@OhHolyJesus
A friend of mine had her husband suggest she sell her eggs for 'expenses' as he has gambling debts. I feel certain that if she was breastfeeding and could sell her milk he'd be encouraging her to do that too. I mean she can sit down, watch tv and pump and the same time, it's no big deal...what does it cost her? If that was going on, even for just one woman in that 'huge group', I'd rather know about it for her sake, than not know.

You have to know this is already going on. Women are in financially abusive relationships where they are coerced into handing over money they have earned to men with gambling addictions. They may have earned it by stacking shelves, cleaning houses, doing overtime at their job, taking on a second weekend job. Financial abuse in relationships happens no matter how a woman earns her money, so there is no sense in using this as an argument against women being able to safely and legally sell their breastmilk if they chose to do so.

Other families where breastfeeding is not an option, cannot always use formula due to the baby having various food allergies or intolerances.

No I never said it was “usual” for parents to buy breastmilk, just that it is definitely happening and the prevalence of it is increasing. More and more mothers are selling and buying breastmilk in a completely unregulated and unsafe manner. Companies have noted this and have sensed an opportunity to become middle men and make a profit. Banning it will only make it go black market and stay unsafe and exploitative. It won’t stop it from happening. That’s why I think regulation is best.

Does anyone remember the breast milk ice cream sold with a shot of Calpol? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12569011.amp
According to the Wiki page it seems to have started life from an advertisement on Mumsnet.

If I keep saying "no, thank you" I'm going to land up on The Wall.

See you all there.

Not if I see you first.

There are huge numbers of women out there doing this, we just tend not to speak about it publicly because of these kinds of attitudes.

Personally I have no problem with that at all, but if in that group of women who are breastfeeding when a child is 4-5 and selling their milk to a man who gets off on it sexually or due to some weird ideas about nutrition or body building, then I think it's ok to ask her if she's ok. So we need to know about this so we can ask questions, apply safeguarding and see if there is any exploitation taking place.

A friend of mine had her husband suggest she sell her eggs for 'expenses' as he has gambling debts. I feel certain that if she was breastfeeding and could sell her milk he'd be encouraging her to do that too. I mean she can sit down, watch tv and pump and the same time, it's no big deal...what does it cost her? If that was going on, even for just one woman in that 'huge group', I'd rather know about it for her sake, than not know.

Gawd almighty, @newnamenewyear, no, I'm not saying that at ALL.

You know, this sort of thing is why we can't talk about breastfeeding and formula in any sensible way. Opinions are so polarised, which makes women defensive of their choices. I'm glad breastfeeding worked for your family - that's got nothing to do with the story I gave of a woman who was abused for her lactation long after she weaned her baby.

I wasn't attacking anyone, I didn't even mention long-term breastfeeding and I don't think I expressed any attitude.

If my own breastfeeding credentials are needed here, my tits have done three extended tours of duty. Does that give me a pass?

And most of us aren't being coerced into it by a partner. We're doing what we know is best for our DC, often despite HUGE pressure from partners and family members to stop, not to mention ignorance from society as demonstrated on this thread.

Yes, I'm 100% with you that there deviant men out there and people need to not be so fucking naive about their existence. And, I'm very glad for this mother that she was (I hope) helped with this situation.

But - seriously, WTF? Why are you implying that mothers who are still BFing their children at 5 are doing it because of perversion?

Although it's unusual in this country, there's absolutely nothing wrong with BFing a 5 year old.

The UK has some of the lowest BFing rates in the world because of ingrained social attitudes towards BFing that often aren't in the interest of the mother or the child.

Are you aware that the World Health Organisation advises that mothers aim to BF all children until AT LEAST 2 years old?

Every family should do what's right for them, but in a global or historical context, people wouldn't bat an eyelid at the idea of a 5 year old having breast milk from their mother. BFing has loads of benefist for a child, even at 5. It's us who have weird attitudes about it.

FWIW, I BF mine until 4 and 5. There are huge numbers of women out there doing this, we just tend not to speak about it publicly because of these kinds of attitudes.

And perverts, Purgatory.

I had a colleague, a million years ago, who was concerned about her patient who mentioned in passing that she was still lactating. The child was 5.

Red flag for serious issues, so she mentioned in passing about how worried she was for this woman in the staff room.

Older, wiser colleague muttered "it'll be the husband". Cue shocked faces from the rest of the staff room.

Right enough, the poor woman was in a coercive relationship and he was using her for his fetish against her will. He was using her breasts and masturbating at the same time. Fucking hell.

If the older, wiser woman hadn't mentioned it she'd have been sent for scans and tests and they'd all have come back normal. As it was, the right questions were asked and she was linked up with women's aid.

It was a lesson for me. If HCPs don't know about men's deviant sexual behaviour then we miss the chance to ask the right question. Women don't volunteer the information, and if you have no insight into how WEIRD some men are, then you'd never know to raise an eyebrow.

I often think about that woman. I hope she left him.