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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"identifies as 8 year old girl" scene from Afterlife

63 replies

MyFirstHypnosis · 12/01/2022 09:59

Appreciate that no-one here needs Ricky Gervais to tell them what to think but I thought some of you would appreciate this scene:

.

I think Gervais is not making a series about identity politics but about cutting through to what matters (that this is someone's father pratting around).

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 13/01/2022 00:11

Thanks OldCrone. Doesn’t sound good, does it. It would be good to have more details but hey, the glory of being able to distance yourself from your deadname, eh.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 13/01/2022 00:00

The kind of man, that should read. Obvs.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:59

@Georgeskitchen

Who on the name of God above would let their grandchildren anywhere near a 52 year bloke dressed as a 6 year old girl? Words fail me
I know. Beyond belief.

Then again, we’re talking about the kind of person who would get off on anally penetrating a late middle aged man dressed up as a six year old girl, so…

OldCrone · 12/01/2022 23:49

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

Sorry if I missed it, but is there a link to a record of Wolscht’s conviction?
This is from the gendertrender link I posted earlier:

In 2009 he was charged with 14 criminal offenses of assault, uttering threats, criminal harassment, and criminal mischief. His wife and their two oldest children- then in their late teens- testified against him. He was found guilty of assault and uttering threats. The court also issued a two-year restraining order against him that applied to his wife and all seven of his children.

I haven't been able to find anything more specific about his offences.

Various news items like this one mention that he spent time in prison, but there is no further detail.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-sixyearold-girl-uses-child-s-play-to-escape-adult-life-a6775051.html

Georgeskitchen · 12/01/2022 23:25

Who on the name of God above would let their grandchildren anywhere near a 52 year bloke dressed as a 6 year old girl?
Words fail me

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:06

Sorry if I missed it, but is there a link to a record of Wolscht’s conviction?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:05

At the time, I think women ended up with their posts being deleted for even intimating that his intentions towards children might be suspect.

And now I find out he was already convicted of abuse.

😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:04

Warmduscher I appreciate what you’re saying but I read it differently.

I don’t know if you’ve come across women on here saying that when the scales fall from your eyes and you see the extent of the misogyny that still surrounds us in the world today, you can’t then unsee it. I don’t know if you feel like that yourself.

I do - and I feel the same about child abuse, especially emotional abuse. Not that emotional abuse is worse than other kinds, just that it’s more invisible, more normalised, more accepted and acceptable.

We don’t see it, a lot of the time, just as we don’t see a lot of the misogyny around us - we’re so used to this being the way the world is that it doesn’t register as abuse in the same way misogyny often doesn’t register as misogyny.

But once you’ve seen it, you can’t unsee it.

And I see it here.

Here’s the dialogue:

He’s still your dad…. He’s your dad and you’ll miss him when he’s not around. My dad died yesterday… I miss him. And I’m old. You love him, don’t you?… Course you do, he’s your dad.

In the context of a father being emotionally abusive to his daughter in plain sight, this is apologism. He’d just asked her, a teenager, if she wanted to “play dollies”, FFS. Using her as an accessory for his fetish/delusion. And he’s invited round the local press to do a feature on him which will inevitably bring awful shame and embarrassment for her because some people in the community will know she’s his daughter whether she’s mentioned by name in the piece or not.

He is treating her as a service human, just like so many men treat women as service humans. And when a parent does that to their child, it’s emotional abuse.

Yes, she says she loves him - but that’s one of the things that is so particularly awful about emotional abuse from a parent: the child does indeed love them, and wants their love, and that’s what makes the whole dynamic so difficult and twisted and damaging.

Also, she doesn’t say that until he prompts her to do so. And what about all the “you’ll miss him when he’s not around” bullshit? What is that if not “shut up and put up”? You see him empathising with her. I think that’s what you’re meant to see.

But I see him denying the reality of the emotional abuse she’s living with, now. I see him doing what countless “sympathetic” adults do in fiction as in RL, and offering a semblance of empathy that actually serves to invalidate and shut down the experiences and voice of the young person they’re talking to.

Imagine if we’d just seen the father physically assault her. Would the same dialogue have ensued? I doubt it. Once upon a time, physical assault was regarded as being as unremarkable by many as emotional abuse still is today: that, thankfully has changed considerably.

But we still have the narrative as a society that multiple emotional assaults should just be shrugged off and accepted as normal (as wallopings once were), and the child should take the responsibility for maintaining a healthy relationship with the parent instead of the other way around - as it should be.

Obviously this scene is fiction - but art and life inform each other, and this piece perpetuates the same old unhealthy narrative, IMO.

And of course these scenarios are happening in real life. Real teenage girls are being asked by their transitioning fathers to go bra shopping with them. Real teenage girls are being pressured to support their fathers on their “journey”, at the expense of having space to explore their own feelings on the subject. Real teenage girls are not being listened to, and told how much they’d miss their dad if he wasn’t around so they just have to put up with their own needs being neglected.

There is real abuse going on. It needs a real response.

I know I’m in a minority with my views. I imagine most people watched it and reacted the same way as you did. I’d be surprised if just one person agreed with me, tbh. But these are my views, and I just wanted to express them.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 12/01/2022 21:33

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

I did not know this!

I didn’t either. About being previously imprisoned for child abuse, that is.

Can’t say it’s come as a surprise though.

At the time, I think women ended up with their posts being deleted for even intimating that his intentions towards children might be suspect.

And now I find out he was already convicted of abuse.

Scraggythang · 12/01/2022 18:32

That’s enough internet for me today.

Scraggythang · 12/01/2022 18:31

@OldCrone thanks for that link.

That’s quite the midlife crisis. Not in any way aided by porn. Obvs.

Ugh.

Warmduscher · 12/01/2022 18:21

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

So much of that is great - I love the way he shows up the absurdity of self ID with his “I’m trans because I say I am” - but I personally could have done without what I saw as denial of/apologism for child abuse at the end. And to an extent also denial/minimising of the reality for trans widows. Very few of whom, if any, would feel able to speak about their husbands like that while still married to them and subject to major gaslighting, I suspect.

Telling the girl effectively that she should still love her dad even though he’s a narcissistic twat whose actions are directly harming her, that she should gloss over her own distress, is not a message I’m happy to see being promoted.

But it’s a common theme in all sorts of film and tv portrayals of emotional abuse of children by parents, which is generally not trans related at all. He’s still your dad/she’s still your mum; your mum/dad still loves you really; you only get one mum, etc, etc. Always the onus is placed on the child to accept emotional abuse as a normal part of life, not to recognise it, to suppress their own feelings about it in the interests of understanding and being supportive to the parent who’s hurting them.

Yes, I know this is a comedy ultimately, but I get sick of these messages being repeated everywhere. What that man is doing is not just ridiculous, it’s also a form of abuse of his wife and daughter and real people in a parallel situation get really hurt by it. And their hurt is too often dismissed or underplayed as it is.

childrenoftransitioners.org/

But still. Good to see the “I identify as an eight year old girl” idea being made as ridiculous as it truly is.

I don’t think Tony did tell the daughter she should still love her dad. It was she who said she did. And Tony said of course he’s not an 8-year-old girl. So he was empathising with her and helping her to find a way to live with it until he came to his senses. He acknowledged that she didn’t stop loving him just because of this.

It would have been different if the daughter had said she hated her dad and Tony had said to her “he’s still your dad, etc”.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 17:40

I did not know this!

I didn’t either. About being previously imprisoned for child abuse, that is.

Can’t say it’s come as a surprise though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 12/01/2022 17:31

@Tanith

It's Steph On Knee 🤢

One of my first "Say what??!" moments, too.

I understood dear Stephonknee no longer advises the Canadian government after it was revealed that Stephonknee had been in prison for child abuse.
All part of that dead-name past life, of course.

What?

I did not know this!

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 17:28

So much of that is great - I love the way he shows up the absurdity of self ID with his “I’m trans because I say I am” - but I personally could have done without what I saw as denial of/apologism for child abuse at the end. And to an extent also denial/minimising of the reality for trans widows. Very few of whom, if any, would feel able to speak about their husbands like that while still married to them and subject to major gaslighting, I suspect.

Telling the girl effectively that she should still love her dad even though he’s a narcissistic twat whose actions are directly harming her, that she should gloss over her own distress, is not a message I’m happy to see being promoted.

But it’s a common theme in all sorts of film and tv portrayals of emotional abuse of children by parents, which is generally not trans related at all. He’s still your dad/she’s still your mum; your mum/dad still loves you really; you only get one mum, etc, etc. Always the onus is placed on the child to accept emotional abuse as a normal part of life, not to recognise it, to suppress their own feelings about it in the interests of understanding and being supportive to the parent who’s hurting them.

Yes, I know this is a comedy ultimately, but I get sick of these messages being repeated everywhere. What that man is doing is not just ridiculous, it’s also a form of abuse of his wife and daughter and real people in a parallel situation get really hurt by it. And their hurt is too often dismissed or underplayed as it is.

childrenoftransitioners.org/

But still. Good to see the “I identify as an eight year old girl” idea being made as ridiculous as it truly is.

Warmduscher · 12/01/2022 16:32

@UltraVividLament

That's brilliant. He's clearly read about Stephonknee or whatever the name is, and he has skewered the key points very concisely there. I love the actress playing the wife, she does a fantastic job.
Agree about the actress playing the wife. She seems so down to earth and just wants him to stop being a dick and be her husband again.

It’s good how it shows that it’s not about being your “authentic self” - it affects everyone around you.

OldCrone · 12/01/2022 16:26

More information about Stephonknee here:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20151224204040/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/transwoman-stefonknee-wolscht-lives-life-as-a-six-year-old-girl/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20151224204040/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/transwoman-stefonknee-wolscht-lives-life-as-a-six-year-old-girl/

Scraggythang · 12/01/2022 15:42

@Tanith @KittenKong well I didn’t know that. How unusual!

KittenKong · 12/01/2022 15:00

@Tanith

It's Steph On Knee 🤢

One of my first "Say what??!" moments, too.

I understood dear Stephonknee no longer advises the Canadian government after it was revealed that Stephonknee had been in prison for child abuse.
All part of that dead-name past life, of course.

Oh no - that’s grim. I remember reading that their ‘adopted’ family let them play with their daughter (who was about 8). There was some suggestion of some, ummmm ‘inappropriate’ activity between them and their ‘new parents’.

Why did the Canadian gvt humour this and allow them to advise them?????

Scraggythang · 12/01/2022 14:53

@JellySaurus yes, and you’d imagine it would be quite invalidating to your identity as a 6 year old to be asked to take part in such grown up discussions… and yet…

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/01/2022 13:49

@KittenKong

Or as my mum used to say ‘does the pope poo in the woods?’
Grin
JellySaurus · 12/01/2022 13:41

Do they often take advice from six year olds?

Funny, isn't it, how they know exactly which 6yo girls to listen to.

Almost as if sex mattered. Or age.

Tanith · 12/01/2022 13:40

It's Steph On Knee 🤢

One of my first "Say what??!" moments, too.

I understood dear Stephonknee no longer advises the Canadian government after it was revealed that Stephonknee had been in prison for child abuse.
All part of that dead-name past life, of course.

KittenKong · 12/01/2022 13:35

Or as my mum used to say ‘does the pope poo in the woods?’

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/01/2022 13:25

Given it's Canada, I feel I must add: Do bears shit in the woods?