House of Lords debate #KeepPrisonsSingleSex

For a British national to get married in Dubai for example, a GRC as proof of sex would be utterly useless. A birth certificate would be required if not a passport. And narrow minded I mean not allowing same sex marriage

I don’t think we should be judging the requirement for a specific piece of U.K. legislation by how it might facilitate someone getting married abroad.

For a British national to get married in Dubai for example, a GRC as proof of sex would be utterly useless. A birth certificate would be required if not a passport. And narrow minded I mean not allowing same sex marriage.

So you're saying we need the GRA which allows for a falsification of details on a birth certificate so that two men or two women could marry in Dubai?

Why would a gay or lesbian couple choose to marry somewhere like Dubai where homosexuality is illegal?

Sorry I mean that their new birth certificate provides them with that security. Not their GRC.

I wonder how many British males there are living in Dubai who wish to marry other males and are finding that their GRC provides sufficient cover for them to not be worried that they might fall foul of such an intolerant and repressive regime?

I suppose there might be one. Someday. Maybe.

Same sex marriage doesn't exist in every nation. Their are British "new" birth certificate holders living in some narrow minded nations.

Are there other laws which are made purely for the benefit of British citizens living in 'narrow minded nations'?

What do you class as 'narrow minded'? Not believing that a person with a penis is a woman?

I wonder if it might be better if people couldn't change their birth certificate since it's just total bollocks to pretend that the circumstances of the birth can change?

Quite. It would make more sense to let people have a GRC if they think it's important to declare a cross-sex gender identity to the world, but leave birth certificates alone since they record sex, not gender. And sex can't change.

To get a new birth certificate.

Why might someone want a new birth certificate @Redlake?

I see. For people who wish to change their identity and birth certificate.

Well that was the original simple intention of the Press for Change campaign. But the Blair govenrnment had to make it complicated.

Since the legalisation of same sex marriage why does anyone need to change their birth certificate?

I see. For people who wish to change their identity and birth certificate.

The GRA needs to be scrapped. Urgently.

So ... what is the point of a GRC, Redlake? They sound like a totally pointless exercise.

Stephen Whittle has put it specifically on record that this was the intention and plan of the political lobby. If they captured women's prisons then after that it was all downhill.

I think that was James Morton (although it wouldn't surprise me if Whittle had said something similar).

In 2018, the then manager James Morton, whose name is detailed on the SPS policy metadata, wrote:

"We strategized that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise."

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/opaque-and-overdue-scottish-prison-service-trans-prisoner-policy-review

April's story is a terribly sad one and I can't help thinking that had that little boy been able to express himself freely and been accepted within his own family then all the abuses (I believe they happened), unnecessary operations and medications and recovery and well as the suicidal thoughts, would not have happened.

This is what we should be learning from someone who has gone before, not how to repeat the experience for children of today.

She died recently, just after Christmas. It's been reported that her father was Catholic and her mother was Protestant. As she said in that interview, she couldn't bear her because she was an embarrassment, and according to another article, was abusive to her, and yet another that she banged her head on the ground. An obituary noted that her father was in the Royal Navy was often away at sea and often inebriated when at home. "But she also recalled him as a “gentle drunk” who, after she transitioned, was the only member of her family to accept her."

If women in prison cannot be guaranteed single-sex spaces, no woman or girl can.

Stephen Whittle has put it specifically on record that this was the intention and plan of the political lobby. If they captured women's prisons then after that it was all downhill.

Sadly a combination of stupidity, gullibility, good intentions, credulity, lack of anyone asking the difficult questions, laziness in doing proper thinking and due diligence and heavily ingrained sexism meant that no one did their job in protecting and considering female interests against male ones.

Sharing is a short interview from the 1970s with April Ashley as I thought it interesting that the questions of toilets and prisons came up, as did the homophobia in a Roman Catholic and working class family and unsurprisingly suicide is also discussed as well as being a feminine boy who is rejected as no one knows how to accept him as he is.

So in 50 years not much has changed in terms of the 'debate' relating to this legal fiction.

(April was also on Loose Women in 2015 when Ruth uses the 'born in the wrong body' phrase.)

Article by Debbie Hayton in UnHerd 11 Jan.

"Lords Amendment on single-sex prisons withdrawn"

"Women are vulnerable in the prison estate, but many still doesn't understand this"

She raises the question of where transwomen like her should go but agrees women are vulnerable and quotes the sponsor of the amendment:
"The female estate is a definitive example of a space that should be single-sex. If women in prison cannot be guaranteed single-sex spaces, no woman or girl can. Hospital wards, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, refuges and toilets in schools—I am talking about anywhere where women and girls, for reasons of dignity, privacy and safety, require single-sex spaces.

• Lord Blencathra"

Also:
' Yet as Baroness Fox pointed out, “the solution should be to make the male estate safer and fit for purpose for all … the purpose of women’s prisons is not to protect vulnerable males”.

After the debate, Fox told UnHerd that the debate “felt like a good dose of gas lighting. They were describing a world that doesn’t exist and accusing us of making up a world that does exist.” Quite.'

unherd.com/thepost/lords-amendment-on-single-sex-prisons-defeated/

That is an extremely good point.