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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Great! DC1 school now joined the gender / sex nonsense

61 replies

NotEnglish · 08/01/2022 12:07

Just before christmas we got an email from DC1 schools that they will end early on a certain day as the whole staff will attend an inhouse workshop as a preparation for the new sex education project the 10 to 12 years old will work on in the next months.
The email was quite vague and did not name the organisation that offers the training but mentioned "genderidentity" so I asked for clarification and asked explicitly if "trans" was included in the trainig and if yes, what were the key points.
Got an answer which still was vague. Asked again to please specify what they mean with "genderidentity" and how that differs from "sex" (We are in Germany so do not have different words for gender and sex, it's both "Geschlecht"). DC1 class teacher (which is also a lead on this project) sent me this picture:
She also explicitly wrote that they will talk about "how we can't always see the sex a person has"

So how do I go from here?
I already wrote her back that I don't want DC1 to take part in these lessons as I don't believe in this ideology and see a potential for harm for childrens health and womens rights and asked her how we can facilitate DC1 not attending.
Problem is: We have a law that makes school attendance compulsory so I don't even know if I have the right to have DC1 not attend.

OP posts:

Topicall · 30/01/2022 18:11

I don't mean take them out of school altogether - just miss the relevant sex ed class (so in practice maybe miss half a day). Breaking the law might be appropriate.

Original poster

NotEnglish · 30/01/2022 15:38

Hey to all of You. We've been sick the whole week (not Covid, just a "standard" virus) so nothing new to tell. Still working on that bloody letter to the school.
Pulling K1 out of school ist not an option - attendance is mandatory by state law.
And it's 2 days a week till end of february.

K1 attended last week because the class teacher assured me it would only be anatomical stuff and correct names for sexual organs.
K1 had to fill in a worksheet labeling the different parts and on the female one he dilligently labeled all the parts including the "cliboris".
So yeah, maybe starting with the correct words was a wise move from the school.
I'm still laughing and thinking about calling my clitoris "Boris" in future

OP posts:

Topicall · 30/01/2022 13:49

Maybe you can just pull your children out, regardless of whether it's against the rules to do so or not? What's the worst they can do - impose a small fine? You would at least send a clear message about how strongly you feel about this.

Igneococcus · 30/01/2022 13:39

I'm a native German speaker and find the language around this topic baffling, partly I think this is deliberate though to make discussions more difficult.
I think Religion might be treated differently than Biologie (if this is where sex ed is now taught. I doubt you can opt out of biology.

monkeywrench · 30/01/2022 09:27

Also, I removed my children from 1. Klasse from Religion, as is my right, although in Grundschule there was no alternative provide, they just sat in a separate classroom and played games, surely there must be some way to use that exemption to remove your child from this specific class? I mean this whole BS is as much a fairytale as the bible is!

monkeywrench · 30/01/2022 09:20

I am also in Germany (BW) my DD is 11 DS is 13 and they have so far not mentioned any of this BS being taught at school. My German is ok but by no means as good as OP's English. This is always problematic for me when I want to get into a debate with someone about this subject!!

Here is a link to a podcast which is actually about Prostitution but is referencing Germany and the 2 women being interviewed are both German, although speaking in English. It maybe that they have some links or information in German that may be helpful.

open.spotify.com/episode/3Nu0EFvcLcl5ORiHt6u78m?si=FuaRFyheTKawDmXQLalqCw&utm_source=copy-link

AgeOfReason99 · 30/01/2022 07:15

Hello
Genspect introduced a gender giraffe to provide a substitute in schools for the genderbread crap, to help kids accept their healthy bodies.
genspect.org/giraffes/

Great! DC1 school now joined the gender / sex nonsense

Igneococcus · 30/01/2022 06:07

@NotEnglish

I talked to a friend from the German forum that I thought would be GC (and she is). Her sister is quite involved in the discussion, and she suggested fairplayfuerfrauen.org/ and www.emma.de
You might have checked these out already but just in case you haven't :)

NitroNine · 19/01/2022 10:27

Ooooft.

Is your child confident enough to (politely!) challenge/correct their teacher when they are wrong? At the very least, will they listen to you (& the facts of the matter) rather than insisting that what they’ve been taught in school must be right because they were taught it in school.

I’m still really cross at what they’re trying to pass off as “peer education” - it’s using the school students as a means of validation; & not recognising them as individuals with distinct identities & needs. It is just so dreadfully DREADFULLY manipulative

I really hope things go ok @NotEnglish

Forgotthebins · 18/01/2022 17:23

It sounds as though the teacher has only had one training session, because as you point out there are mistakes, e.g how they talk about VSDs.

Is there any governing board of the school which has representation from parents? I wonder if it is possible to raise the questions with them and say that you are concerned about poor quality and that by only using staff training from one perspective, it risks the quality of learning. I don’t actually know whether you think the whole SRE project is problematic or just the slanted approach to gender identity. But the genderbread thing is a great example of a BAD resource in my view, it leans on stereotypes and encourages brooding among young people.

If there is a parent-school forum, do you feel able to say that as this is a live political debate in Germany where different parties take different views, therefore students must be allowed to explore the issues so that they come to their own conclusions: not the school offering them a political answer. Different students will bring different perspectives and it is important for them to be able to work through complicated questions with a range of different perspectives. Like if it was a project on nuclear power, they wouldn’t just have “nuclear power is great” or “nuclear power is awful” - students would (I guess) be encouraged to learn research skills, understand the political arguments from different sides, and so on. Or maybe a better example is migration.

Taswama · 18/01/2022 16:47

Just joining this thread as interested in German politics, having previously lived in Germany.

Original poster

NotEnglish · 17/01/2022 22:53

And, interestingly, on the german parenting board I'm on somebody brought up the Trans-thing. I swear it wasn't me and I was not goading or steering the conversation in that direction. Somebody mentioned gendered clothes for kids, and somebody else went on a tangent. Since I was in an online meeting and just surfed with half my attention/brain, I think I may have been a little to direct. Only got some questions but suppose I will be flamed soon.
(Did phrase something really sloppy and not clearly defined so will probably have to backpedal a bit. Damn.)

OP posts:

Original poster

NotEnglish · 17/01/2022 22:49

[quote Igneococcus]I just saw this in the Times today, the Greens are really trying to push through 'progressive" stuff without much concers about consequences it seems:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a38f3a56-76eb-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=5e2971b21fd5d132baa10cbc10503ac1[/quote]
Yep. They are really pushing.
I mean, I'm all for "modernizing" formal relationships and stuff. In my eyes it is bizzare to mix a "romantic" thing with some rights and some obligations (as marriage does). Why does beeing married while not earning money give me the right for free health insurance when single non-earners have to pay? Etc.
And yeah, it's ok for people to think about "Hey, is it maybe better for children if more than just the biological or adoptive parents have obligations to them?" You know, interview people who have expertise. Think it trough. Ec.
But You can't just randomly say "4" because reasons. What about legalities?
Do each of these 4 people have to pay maintenance?
What about when they split, does the child get to see all "parents"? Do they share custody? What if the 4 parents can't agree on something? Do biological parents get more say or the ones the kid lives with? Is there a ranking? What when they all get old? Does the child have to pay care home fees for all 4 of them?

And what is realistically best for the kids? How established does a relationship to the kid need to be to let somebody be the 3. or 4. parent?
How do you make sure that it's not esentially a kids-trade? You know, as womb-renting is illegal in Germany, why not just pay someone to have a baby, then they put You as parent 3 and 4 and then they give up their rights. Et voila, now you "adopted" a baby without any checks.

I really despair.

Update on the matter: DC1 teacher assured us that tomorrow will only be biological facts and correct word for bodyparts.
DC1 will attend because of the law that a kid has to go to school.
I really really hope that "biological facts" do not include "people can change sex", or "women can have a penis" and that "correct words for bodyparts" do not include "lady dick"

OP posts:

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2022 20:27

This would be in line with the idea that in the proposed new Harry Potter film the part of his mother will be played by a transwoman.

Igneococcus · 17/01/2022 06:18

I just saw this in the Times today, the Greens are really trying to push through 'progressive" stuff without much concers about consequences it seems:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a38f3a56-76eb-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=5e2971b21fd5d132baa10cbc10503ac1

Original poster

NotEnglish · 16/01/2022 17:20

I've not forgotten but have been very busy. Still haven't found time to give a full update AND still need to write an answer to the school.

Will hopefully be back this evening or tomorrow.

And I really despair: In the email from school the teacher talks about the "geschlecht" being documented at birth as male or female. But some people have a different "Geschlecht". Than you are genderqueer. Which according to him means you define yourself as neither feamle nor male, but something in between or something compeletely different. As an example he cites transexuals.

In a later paragraph he talks about the "Geschlecht" assigned at birth.
Hmm, weird, didn't he earlier say it was just documented at birth?

And then he goes on to the Body-geschlecht, which medicine and biology divide into male and female. But people who do not fit in these "drawers" are Intersex, which means between-sex, and is a mixture of male and female. The "geschelchtsmerkmale" (sex signifiers?) of these babies can't be classed into the male or female category.
These babys get "diverse" as a sex marker in their documents.

I really am no expert for Intersex conditions / DSD but even I do know that for some of the variations, the Geschelchtsmerkmale are definitely male or female (like Turner or Klinefelter). SOmebody who had training for giving lessons to schoolkids just last weeks should be a little more aware of the facts that DSD can come in extremely diverse forms.

OP posts:

Serenschintte · 14/01/2022 17:45

Can you get other parents who are supportive of your perspective? If more people wrote/question etc school are more likely to react.
I would also be having frank conversations at home with the dc. We are in Switzerland and have similar classes (although I have been able to remove mine)
Topics I have raised with Dc include:
Would you like grandma to be in a hospital ward that is single sex with a male bodied person in the bed next to them - that was what peaked my DH. Before that he was not really bothered.
I also showed them the pictures from standingforwomen.com which had graphic surgery pictures of arms with flesh removed to create a 'penis'
Dr Winstons statement on question time about our sex being in ever cell of our dna is also good. Maybe it’s on YouTube or someone can link it.
Also i discussed with dc how many men don’t get operated on and are intact despite presenting in a stereotypical feminine way - dresses etc. Men in women’s prisons
I find that when you show the dc the actual reality of what is going on then see the truth.
Dc1 late teens was incredulous when I pointed out that despite identifying as straight he could be considered a transphobe if he didn’t want to kiss/date a transgender woman.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/01/2022 17:24

“Akela64

Dsdfamilies.org are a UK charity so might not be consider reputable in Germany. They say

"Avoid conflating DSD with LGBT and identity issues. Although this approach may seem
common, most intersex and DSD orgs and consensus statements agree that it is
unhelpful and does little to highlight and address actual issues faced by people with
DSD (see also the Resources and External Agencies section of this booklet). Schools
should also be mindful of this if other students give talks about LGBT+ issues in school.

“I think it is different in the sense that, well at least when I describe it to people, you
get confused very easily with trans people when you describe intersex as something
that is within the LGBT acronym which I think… it feels like… it can sort of be like your
struggle is overshadowed almost… by something that you are not affected by at all…
that you are conflated with.”

www.dsdfamilies.org/download_file/view/202/183”

I think that the way “LGBTQI” is being bandied around even by official bodies is damaging and adding to confusion.

Intersex should not be used to mean ‘non-binary’ or some point in a ‘spectrum’.

Because it can mean a DSD, ‘Intersex’ should not be in that list. DSD is neither a sexual orientation or a gender ‘identity’.

Akela64 · 14/01/2022 15:37

Dsdfamilies.org are a UK charity so might not be consider reputable in Germany. They say

www.dsdfamilies.org/download_file/view/202/183

ScrollingLeaves · 13/01/2022 20:41

It makes one despair.

I now wonder just how much ‘knowledge’ officially out there in general is disingenuous, or nonsense, or quietly being promoted by some interested lobby group.

Igneococcus · 13/01/2022 17:24

I looked if there is a German organisation for people with DSD and there is but it is now called "Deutsche Gesellschaft for Transidentidaeten und Intersex" and looking at the site it's like 80% trans with little bit of intersex as a cover. Feck, that's depressing.

Original poster

NotEnglish · 13/01/2022 17:20

@Chasingtime

I am afraid my dc would have a 'bad head ache' that day OP

The project started tuesday and runs till end of february. Two days a week. I really don't think DC1 can have so many headaches ;-)

OP posts:

Chasingtime · 13/01/2022 17:17

I am afraid my dc would have a 'bad head ache' that day OP

Original poster

NotEnglish · 13/01/2022 17:13

School has finally answered (some) of my questions.
I really wan't to weep...
The teacher is contradicting himself in the email and of course mentions "sex/gender assigned at birth" and Intersex people and stuff like that.

Have to make dinner for the kids, hope to find time to give more details later but quick question: Is there any reputable Intersex-Organisation that clearly states that they wan't to be kept out of the transgender debatte?
(And really, aside of mentioning it in passing, why is Intersex even in the things covered in sex education? I mean, yeah, please do mention it while talking about female and male sex, we even have a specific sex category for it on the birth certificate, but come on, it's 0,2% of the population! It's a really rare condition. Why is it given so much space in the email from the teacher? )

OP posts:

ScrollingLeaves · 13/01/2022 11:25

“Then the I came along, and I vividly remeber thinking "That is just bizarre! Why put a biological disorder together with sexual preferences and people who feel they are something else than their sex?"

Quite. The thing is that by I ( Intersex) they do not mean those born with biological disorders of DSD, who have very particular needs and are nothing to do with trans.
They find it useful to appropriate a vague idea of DSD to cover the idea that some people are in the middle of a ‘spectrum’.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can see this is what has happened.

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