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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Spectator transwoman journalist

145 replies

Gingerbreadrules · 03/01/2022 19:18

www.spectator.co.uk/article/harry-potter-and-the-strange-absence-of-j-k-rowling

I'm interested in the author of this article and her point of view. I haven't come across Debbie Hayton before but she seems to be a transwoman who accepts that she remains biologically male, and that trans rights should not take away women's rights. I have literally never come across this before (and I am heartened by it). She describes herself as a transwoman (and also in other places, a transexual, which I thought was not allowed terminology these days).

OP posts:
oldwomanwhoruns · 04/01/2022 14:26

Thank you, R0wantrees, for posting the text of the NASUWT guidance.
As ever, this stuff never fails to shock, how ever often we read it!

"It is always far better to ask
the person concerned" Angry

The complete failure, as ever, to appreciate that the people affected here are the women. They should be asking the f***g women.

terryleather · 04/01/2022 14:03

@TinselAngel

For women new to this who want to learn more about AGP, links to trans widow's testimonies can be found here. A new story has been added today (see end of thread)

New Transwidows website: Trans Widows Voices
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3856287-New-Transwidows-website-Trans-Widows-Voices

Thanks for posting this Tinsel, I think it would be a better use of one's time to read TWV than to be centering males with trans identities...
Masdintle · 04/01/2022 14:02

I know what you mean Confused

R0wantrees · 04/01/2022 13:58

Masdintle I look in occasionally when I have time. It doesn't seem to be the feminist consciousness raising space that it used to be.

TinselAngel · 04/01/2022 13:52

For women new to this who want to learn more about AGP, links to trans widow's testimonies can be found here. A new story has been added today (see end of thread)

New Transwidows website: Trans Widows Voices
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3856287-New-Transwidows-website-Trans-Widows-Voices

Masdintle · 04/01/2022 13:52

Hello R0wantrees, haven't seen you for ages. Thought we'd lost you!

terryleather · 04/01/2022 13:52

@Datun

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

Quite. It comes to something when a victim of AGP is deleted from the feminist section of a largely women centred site, whilst an autogynephile is 'fangirled' on the same thread.

Doesn't it just Datun...quite something to behold given that Hayton is responsible for that shocking NASUWT guidance and doesn't appear to be doing much to remedy it.
R0wantrees · 04/01/2022 13:47

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

Quilette Published on February 2, 2020
'I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy'
written by Debbie Hayton
(extract)
"I speak from experience when I say that it’s difficult for autogynephiles to admit the simple truth that they are simply heterosexual males who use the conceit of female self-identification as a means to rationalize their sexual attraction to a female version of themselves. As any sex therapist can attest, people often feel ashamed about unusual sexual proclivities. Shame is a powerful emotion, and a person who suffers from it often will be driven to control their narrative in a way that protects their sense of self-worth.

Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism." (continues)

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

'NASUWT Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges
Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders' published 2017
At the front & end is acknowledgement,

^"The NASUWT is very grateful to Dr Debbie Hayton (Teacher) for
assisting in the development of this guidance."^

NASUWT advice to SLT makes clear the Union will support perceived discrimination claims with legal action though this is clearly more for the benefit of its members who are Schoolmasters under the wide self-id trans umbrella (including cross-dressers) rather than Women Teachers who have the protected characteristic of sex.

(extract)
"Supporting Dual-role People
Some people manage their gender dysphoria by living as a man or a woman in different aspects of their lives. For example, they may work in a male role but socialise in a female role.
Although the protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment, it is best to assume that dual-role people are covered by perception that they might transition.
Like everyone else they deserve to be treated with dignity
and respect.
In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.
As referenced on page 4, it is always far better to ask the person concerned before applying any arbitrary label to them. " (continues)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

oldwomanwhoruns · 04/01/2022 13:33

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

This.

Why are they not trying to put right this wrong, which they have inflicted, on women??

lovelyweathertoday · 04/01/2022 13:28

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

@DebbieInBirmingham just in case you want to reply to this. You normally ignore this question, which I think means you still expect some men to get school children to call them "miss" as they do women teachers, and you still think female teachers shouldn't have single-sex spaces as you believe some men can choose to use them.

I consider this an anti-women position, which you might want to clarify seeing as you are being "fan-girled" on a feminist forum.

Datun · 04/01/2022 13:18

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

Quite. It comes to something when a victim of AGP is deleted from the feminist section of a largely women centred site, whilst an autogynephile is 'fangirled' on the same thread.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 04/01/2022 12:56

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Isn't it?

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

But won't. Because, Naughty Step and socialisation.

Its very like the way people were fawning over the trans OP on that got deleted.
Wheresthebeach · 04/01/2022 12:53

@FortySeven

Thanks *@DebbieInBirmingham*, I haven’t always agreed with everything you’ve said but you always come across as respectful and level-headed and I’m grateful to you and other trans people who are capable of civil debate.
Absolutely this.
EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 04/01/2022 12:50

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

OvaHere · 04/01/2022 12:44

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Isn't it?

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

But won't. Because, Naughty Step and socialisation.

I know

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 04/01/2022 12:41

God yes. Don't want to stop or stifle discussion. I only got here because I lurked for a while, then posted and got a strip or two torn off me for my naivety.

I seem to be short on patience for others going through the same process. For which I apologise, unreservedly Smile

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 12:35

On the other hand, it is threads like this one and some others started this past week that show that lurkers are coming out to start threads and discussions. And that they are keen to learn so they can form their own opinions, while showing that they are quite new to this issue and that they haven't yet heard of some of those who we have become familiar with.

That is the power of MN.

Thanks for posting OP. There is always a good discussion to be had.

DoubleTweenQueen · 04/01/2022 12:20

@DebbieInBirmingham

I'm often asked, "how many trans people think the same way as you, Debbie?"

The glib answer is none - I have my own views that are unique to me and everyone else's thoughts are going to be at least slightly different.

But in real life there are a range of views that tend not to be apparent on social media. Some have no interest in taking their views online, while others are unwilling to speak out because they see what happens to those who do. But even among those of us who speak out I find social media imposes orthodoxies on us according to the group we are in. It is safer to conform to the views of the group than stand aside from it and say things like, "I've been thinking, and I don't think that's right."

But I'd say the disquiet among trans people about gender identity ideology is rather more common than you would gather from Twitter.

That makes perfect sense. SM is not a place for calm debate. Zero point in sticking your head above the parapet. The raging TRAs wouldn't listen anyway - trans folk who are modest in their requirements for inclusion, anti bullying and basic rights, and just to live their lives would be/are denounced as imposters and irrelevant, as are the thousands of young de-transitioners. Who needs that?

Really grateful for @DebbieInBirmingham - your heightened profile must cost you dearly - and others willing to at least try and bring some reason to the table, at significant personal expense.

Hopeful that the pushback on gender identity ideology grows hugely this year - particularity against the outrageous influences on our children.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 04/01/2022 12:01

Isn't it?

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

But won't. Because, Naughty Step and socialisation.

Datun · 04/01/2022 11:59

HoardingSamphireSaurus

WheresMyAlex
Hi @DebbieInBirmingham, I don’t want to derail the thread but can I just say I thought you did a stellar job debating James Max the other day. It’s so refreshing to hear a TW speak up for biological reality x
And yet so sad that nobody said the same about KJK. We had to wait for a man to repeat much of what she said before many here would speak up uncritically.

JKJ responses: I don't agree with all she says but...

DH responses: Oooh Debbie you were stellar...

Sometimes we women are our own worst enemies!

Yes. Even when women are aware of they way we're socialised, its a hard habit to break.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 11:58

I hear you Hoarding.

I would suggest it has stemmed from the number of times women have had to fight the crap laid down in attempts to discredit feminist speakers. The ‘right wing’ trope, the ‘racist’ trope. The [insert the latest claim] trope.

It has formed a reactive pattern and one I absolutely agree needs to stop. It does create a toxic tribal nature to the discussions that need to be had.

JangolinaPitt · 04/01/2022 11:52

Ooh -fan girl here @DebbieInBirmingham - are you recently on the Triggernometry podcast? Was very refreshing -thanks

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 04/01/2022 11:49

@WheresMyAlex

Hi *@DebbieInBirmingham*, I don’t want to derail the thread but can I just say I thought you did a stellar job debating James Max the other day. It’s so refreshing to hear a TW speak up for biological reality x
And yet so sad that nobody said the same about KJK. We had to wait for a man to repeat much of what she said before many here would speak up uncritically.

JKJ responses: I don't agree with all she says but...

DH responses: Oooh Debbie you were stellar...

Sometimes we women are our own worst enemies!

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 11:48

I would like to hear Robin clarify that post. And to correct my interpretation.

Because I am forever tired of hearing ‘the majority’ don’t agree, yet being assured that ‘yes they do’, while in the same breathe being gaslighted about how the ‘majority’ of women are fully supportive of males with penises being able to access female single sex spaces.

So, I think someone who prides themselves on being so articulate about these issues (they speak on women’s panels about this very topic, after all) should be able to come and clarify their plopped down post.

They know very well that readers will judge their credibility on it. So there is quite a bit at stake here.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 04/01/2022 10:00

Virtually none.

Which is a patent lie. There have been a number of transwomen posters here over the years. Debbie is not the only one who holds those views.

Many posters here have freiends who are trans who also hold those views.

Robin has a history here of being economical with the truth, of twisting the truth, including the EA2010, to meet their ideological needs.

As usual, it won't wash!