Disagreement with husband about trans debate

i did wonder but couldn't be arsed to ask

It means genuine…apparently

EXTRACT from Karen Ingala Smith, professional in the violence against women sector

Quote

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, in almost every case, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience a debilitating trauma response as a result. It’s not their fault, it’s not a choice and it’s not something they can be educated out of. It’s not hate. It’s not bigotry. It’s not transphobia. It is an impact of abuse and they need space, support and sometimes therapy – not increased confrontation with a trauma inducing trigger; not nowhere to go that offers a woman-only space.

www.kareningalasmith.com/2020/07/08/trauma-informed-services-for-women-subjected-to-mens-violence-must-be-single-sex-services/amp/

Is this "privilege"?

/gen

Does this mean anything in particular?

Are we stuck on toilets again?

Do I deserve dignity and privacy away from all males when I use the toilet in the following ways (none of these are made up, they are my reality)

• cleaning myself and changing pads after period flooding while a pram is jammed in the open door because I had no support on a necessary trip out.

• using the hand drier to dry clothing after rinsing to remove blood, milk from overfill breasts, or vomit from an infant? Sometimes that clothing needed to be removed leaving me partially without a shirt.

• maneuvering my elderly disabled mother onto the toilet with her wheel chair jammed in an open door because their was no accessible toilet (yes, it does happen!).

• having to change clothes with cubicle doors that don’t lock between leaving one job to get to another.

Female toilets are used for so much more than ‘just needing to pee’. Many people like to ignore this.

In every case it would be humiliating if a male was in the toilets. And yes, we can tell the difference between male and female.

Plus, I have had a number of friends who have miscarried in toilets. Do they deserve privacy in cleaning up?

Males need to sort out any safety issues in their own toilets. It is not appropriate for any male above 8 to be in a female single sex space. No matter how much they want to.

HermioneKipper (OP) wrote - "he thinks that only fully transitioned TW should be considered women"

SantaClawsServiette wrote - "numbers of fully transitioned males were tiny"

AngelicInnocent wrote - "A lot of people still see a fully transitioned male as being Hayley from Corrie"

SapphosRock wrote - "if you really object to a fully transitioned trans woman"

Is there a precise, unambiguous definition in law of " fully transitioned "?

Does it require e.g. prostate removal and bone length changes? If not, why not?

Or does it rely on the misogynist propaganda that claims "woman=breasts and/or no penis"?

@artichokeleaves your last two posts are absolutely spot on.

As to 'vitriol' - when you remove accessibility to all public resources, and subordinate female humans to the interests of males - are you really surprised that females should tell you how furiously angry they are? How unfair this is? How wrong this is? Tell you their issues and needs and problems with this?

Why do you expect females to just suck up your assault on their rights and equality while being nice to you about it?!

I am making the case of trans-women who I believe deserve the same privilege as AFB women to use the facilities associated with their identity

Accessible facilities are not a 'privilege'. They are a necessity. For the accessibility of females - the first job of a female only space - it must be single sex. Otherwise some females are excluded.

Females do not use spaces based on their identity. They use spaces based on the fact of their biological sex based reality. Those spaces are often specifically designed for the biological sex based reality of the sex using it. That this concept of sex based reality is distressing for a tiny percentage of the population does not disappear it from the 99% who need it.

No, there is no point at which a male person should be awarded a 'privilege' of using a female only space. It's not a reward for males. It's not a resource for males. It's a female space, meeting the needs of female humans. It is necessary to those female humans.

If a male person requires a different, more accessible space then create new spaces. Create lots of new spaces. You cannot rip equality off female people to try and make life better for male people.

Which means you now need to persuade me that including trans-women is more important than including all the women and girls who won't be able to access the toilets now.

We have women's toilets, with sanitary bins, because women can't use urinals, and need places to sort out our periods. This is not a matter of identification. It's biological reality.

So persuade me that including transwomen in women's toilets is more important than all the women who don't agree with you also having access to somewhere to change a sanitary pad.

Those women would also quite like TW to stop trying to force them to stop being women, to define themselves by stereotypes they find offensive and which in effect would mean that pretty much most women aren't women so that male people can be women, to use language that erases them and which enacts beliefs they don't hold and means creating illusions they find personally disadvantaging....

Saying 'no, you can't take x away from me because I need it' is nothing like what women are being subjected to by this political movement. The behaviour this political movement would never tolerate is freely lavished by them upon women. And the fact that it's more or less acceptable continues to tell you why women's equality, access and single sex spaces are not yet a thing of the past.

I am making the case of trans-women who I believe deserve the same privilege as AFB women to use the facilities associated with their identity, and the majority of this comment section has responded with various virtriol, called me a mysoginist, cherry picked statements in my posts and generally ignored the intended message I have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet or a random person in general. Charlatans exist no matter if you help these people or not. If any of you are genuinely confused about my views then I apologise that I haven't explained myself clearly and if you try to understand I'll explain further. It seems that this is unlikely based on the previous response from some but I remain hopeful smile /gen

As male people what makes transwomen any different from any other male persons, which would make it reasonable to allow them access to female safe spaces? It is certainly not crime statistics as the danger presented by male people who identify as women is the same as the danger presented by men. Moreover, why do you think female spaces are a " privilege" that women have, rather than a safeguarding necessity which allow women to participate in public life?

This is about tolerance which requires parallel provision. You cannot ever successfully enforce people to participate in and co operate with a belief they do not hold that is this fundamental to themselves and their lives. You cannot force them to redefine themselves to suit others against their will and their own beliefs.

Women are not requiring that TW stop being TW. They merely want to be left alone and not stripped of their access, their equality, their language and identity. They're perfectly happy for TW to have whatever resources and facilities they want and need, just not for TW to remove theirs. Solutions that work for all.

And no, you definitely aren't going to persuade me otherwise.

@ErynIsTrans the sex of human beings is observed at birth and long before, in utero, due to prenatal testing and scans. The only time, historically, that it can be said to have been 'assigned' was for people with very rare DSD's and their sex is now definitively determined by karotyping.

All this 'assigned' terminology is yet another attempt to falsely conflate sex and gender. Same gender is not the same as same sex. Stonewall have taken it upon themselves to refine homosexuality - they now define it as same gender attraction rather than it's actual definition which is same sex attraction.

That difference matters.

Well transwomen aren't women, obviously. They may want to be women, they may think they are women, they may try to look like women, they may conform to society's stereotypes of women , but they aren't women. The first requirement to be a transwoman is to be born male. Babies born male stay male, a person who is male cannot be a woman.

It's fairly simple really.

You just don't care

Seem so. What sort of person could read that account of that child, and still come down on the side of males being able to access these spaces. So unpleasant.

ErynIsTrans

Using AFAB/AMAB suggests you either don't understand what the initialism stands for, or that you don't know what assigned means. If English is your first language, it's not an impression you should be eager to foster.

Further, it suggests you are entirely unaware of the last 40 years' worth of progress in antenatal medicine (sonographs - they're a thing!), which is an unwise image to project on a parenting site.

The fundamental difference in opinion is just that some people here think that trans-women (not paedos/perverts or stag do members) are women and some don't. That's the only reason I don't really see the conversation being worth pursuing because I'm probably not going to pursuade you of that :(

I don't have a religion. And I would be very offended that you called my religion weird if I did.

there is no such thing as the right not to be offended I'm afraid. and believing that humans can change sex definitely looks like a religion from here

what about AMAB men committing acts of sexual assault on other AMAB men?

what about it? how is that relevant to keeping women safe?

I think if someone is willing to work that hard to pass as a woman, they wouldn't be intent on rape or sexual assault.

50% of the transwomen in both the UK and US prison systems are sex offenders.

so either

1. transwomen are massively more likely to be sex offenders than your average man

or

2. men who are sex offenders are identifying as transwomen

which is it?

There are always exceptions, and I believe anyone who trusts me enough to confide in me. /gen This is however, a minority of people.

that's fine, you do you. I don't trust someone just because they've confided in me

I think a lot of people here would disagree with you on that, in that they just think anyone not afab doesn't deserve to be able to identify as a woman

People can identify however they want. Wear what they want. Present how they want. The line is drawn however when males, no matter how they identify, also want to have women's rights and safeguards, which then renders them meaningless.

No-one is assigned a sex at birth. Sex is decided at the point of conception, it's just recorded at birth. AFAB and AMAB are unnecessary. Just use woman/man or girl/boy or female/male.