Disagreement with husband about trans debate

I’d be upset too OP. I find it fucking offensive that so many people seem to think woman = “person with no penis”, which is what your DH’s stance boils down to.

Just because most men seem to be ruled by their cock one way or the other doesn’t mean we should be defined by it!

I think its weird that people think not allowing males into women's private spaces is an 'extreme view'.

I'm another one who thinks you and your DH are not that far apart on this. I would agree to disagree for now. You can always explain why you think what you do, but neither of you should be berating the other into having to agree with them completely.

To be honest I can't decide if I agree more with you or your DH. I know most on this board agree more with you and I do understand that opinion. But I also really l feel really bad for the tiny minority of fully transitioned transsexuals who were quietly getting on with life before TRAs and Stonewall ruined everything.

Anyway, I think you and your DH could be a lot further apart than you are!

"I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances. "

Unfortunately I think you may be wrong on this and he is correct.
BBC : "However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawfull_."

This is because in law, the Equality Act of 2010, and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, gave trans rights.

We can’t agree 100% on all issues with our partners.
Unless one/both of you are involved in drafting law/policy regarding trans people using women only spaces, it’s best to chalk this up to one of those “agree to disagree” cases and move on.

No one will ever be happy with any formal policy regarding this matter. Some Trans people may feel marginalised, some women may feel unsafe, some women may feel like women’s rights have been pushed aside for trans rights….. the list can go on.

I believe the ‘conflict free’ resolution (albeit impractical) is unisex single user bathrooms (like a plane or train) in public spaces.

What are his opinions on trans men out of interest?

Does he consider them men when they’ve had their breasts removed? Or do they have to have had phalloplasty? Does he think they should be considered male for the purposes of joining all male groups (eg Masonic lodges)?

Would he consider it appropriate that a trans man (at whatever stage of surgery they were at) would be authorised to conduct an intimate body search on him? Would he (really) feel totally comfortable if that were to happen?

Whilst completely disagreeing with his view on that point, I’d say not to be too upset with him. Spouses don’t agree on everything. Views change. If his views on TW were completely at odds with yours then that would be different, but he’s probably a lot closer to your views than most people (including many women).

And at least he will discuss it. I’ve had a few conversations with teenage DD about it (we disagree) and DH gets very cross that we are daring to have a debate as he seems to think it’s better to ignore any disagreements (a whole other thread!). DD is very influenced by a girl at school who is trans as DD gets on with her and doesn’t want to malign her. She can’t explain to me though why the girl can’t dress how she wants and do the activities she wants whilst still being female without it reinforcing sexist stereotypes that females must have long hair, wear makeup and play with dolls.)

For heterosexual men who say TW are women, asking the question as to whether they’d therefore be happy to be in a relationship / sleep with them is often the way to make them realise that actually they don’t really think that.

I just looked blankly at DH when he started on the 'fully transitioned' stuff and asked whether he, bass-voiced, 6ft 7 and balding, with size 14 feet, would be a convincing woman even without a willy.

For what it’s worth, I agree with your husband.
I have no idea what DH thinks because it has absolutely no relevance to our relationship whatsoever!

I am married to a TRA so sympathise. We try not to talk about it.

What exactly do you both mean by womens spaces though? Because if you really object to a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC using a ladies public toilet then I do think that is rather extreme.

Women's refuges and rape crisis counselling is a bit different though.

So sorry OP, like a large number of men, he has no real skin in the game so he just doesn’t see how bloody offensive it is to basically be saying “yes women can be a feeling in a man’s head & a costume he can put on. If he gets rid of his dick why can’t you just be kind eh?”

If your answers to the above questions are yes, maybe you need to give some consideration to what he has said.

Don't forget that in addition to men and non-men, lots of men divide women into fuckable and non-fuckable, so another person moving into the latter category is neither here or there to them.

That should be less "altruistically" not, artistically!

My kingdom for an edit button

I'd stick the Nolan podcast on in the background when he's about too. Blue tooth through the radio.

Many people seem to believe that the two categories of humans aren't men and women, but men and everyone else. Men and non-men as the Greens would have it. I think it is unfortunately a very common position, but it can be a stepping stone to true understanding.

The difficulty is that when men hold this view, it can come from a different place. Most men place great importance on their genitals and the idea that one would want to have the surgically removed is so alien and disturbing that they think any man who would do that either deserves to be in the "not man" category because he wants to and has taken extreme measures to that end, or less "artistically" they see them as less than a man now, and want them away, in the "not a man" category.

It's offensive all around, as far as I'm concerned. Women aren't men with a bit missing.

As for the #MostOppressed... Do me a favour!

So long as he realises that it's not practicable in terms of enforceable policy, then I personally wouldn't fall out too much over this.

I absolutely don't believe that a man without a penis is a woman, and I find it offensive that so many people view women as nothing more than penis-less men. But I do agree that someone who has gone to the lengths of extreme surgery to remove their genitals is not a physical risk to women. The risk comes from the resulting redefinition of "woman", and from those who will actively seek to harm women.

I also believe that such a surgery requirement leaves trans people themselves at risk. We shouldn't be encouraging people into risky surgery (that they might not otherwise have undertaken) with the promise of accessing women's spaces. Third spaces are safer for everyone involved.

Try not to let it get to you.

It's terribly upsetting when someone you love and trust disagrees with you on something fundamental, like Brexit or getting vaccinations, and especially when they accuse you of being "too radical" and going "too far" in your views 🙄 for basically speaking the truth, that men can't be women no matter what.

He's the one who's made it personal and has basically tried to make you feel bad for saying something most people agree with. He gets to do that because what you were talking about doesn't actually affect him or his spaces whatsoever.

You agree he's thinking the way you used to, before everything got messed up with the extremism so you can at least empathise with his view.

I'd suggest if the conversation comes up again you say something along the lines of-

"I respect you enough to accept you have your opinion, and I hope you can respect me enough to accept I have mine. Please refrain from criticizing me personally, as debating who should be accepted as a woman or not is a woman's issue that doesn't affect men at all. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this."

He's just not thought that much about it and being a dude he can't picture the problem.

That was my stance once. If they had had the operation then where is the harm, but I simply hadn't given it much thought. It's not until you lift that lid up and look a bit further down that your opinions change.

Not everyone gives it that much thought at first and some men (and women) just don't bother going further.

See how all the women are doing the work to try and explain to him the basics?

Even if he doesn't feel that men without a penis are not men any more, it really isn't our issue to solve. He will basically throw women under the bus in order to keep men without penises out of his spaces.

Very transphobic.

Along side the experiences of trans widows, there's this:

childrenoftransitioners.org/

It's men's fault that other men don't feel safe using the men's toilet and changing spaces etc.

All men should stop tolerating shit behaviour from other men and let all men in men's spaces, even ones that don't fit the stereotypical man.

Male pattern offending rates don't change with removal of penis.

I wondered where that thread went dozer. I'd just posted some links

Op I'd actually focus more on the ideological harms as a wider whole.

So for example, non binary.

genevievegluck.substack.com/p/castrating-children-in-the-service

And this is by a transwoman:

mirandayardley.com/en/transgender-ideology-noes-not-support-women/

Talk about the experiences of detransitioners.

Transwidows.

ROGD.

What are his views on sport?

How are males a marginalised group?