Page 15 | Disagreement with husband about trans debate

HermioneKipper · 2022-01-03T00:57:45+00:00

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR. After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.” He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women. I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances. He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡 I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/01/2022 10:56

Don't put lies into other peoples mouths, thedancingbear. It's not conducive to civil debate and liable to be seen as 'not in the spirit'.

If anyone gets beaten up, it's always the fault of the person who did the beating.

And why would we object to a trans teacher? So long as, like any other, they're being professional in the classroom, why would we?

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/01/2022 10:54

No one should be beaten up.

But those doing thr beating are mist often male..as are the victims.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

They are the safest demographic in the UK.

DrMorbius · 03/01/2022 10:53

I guess your DH's view is coming from a kind place, of wanting to support a minority. A minority that would have gone through some fairly gruesome changes to become something else as he see's it. Plus it is a "macro" view.

It's when you get down to the micro view and the daily practicalities that his view point becomes problematic. He has already observed that sports competition is obviously a non starter. When you discuss the various other practical situations, I believe his view point will become more aligned with yours.

thedancingbear · 03/01/2022 10:51

@Whatwouldscullydo

And how many other people also have that happen to then all the time.

There's always fights. Mostly man/male to man/male.

99.9.percent of those who apply for a job don't get it.

No one objects so much to a transwoman teaching their children. They object to gaslighting children. As long as you dress appropriately, don't chastise over pronouns or tell kids you are the sex you aren't you will be ok.

So if a trans woman gets beaten up by a man, it's their own fault, because they're male.

slow handclap

And like fuck would you and dozens of other posters here tolerate their kids being taught by a trans woman.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/01/2022 10:50

And how many other people also have that happen to then all the time.

There's always fights. Mostly man/male to man/male.

99.9.percent of those who apply for a job don't get it.

No one objects so much to a transwoman teaching their children. They object to gaslighting children. As long as you dress appropriately, don't chastise over pronouns or tell kids you are the sex you aren't you will be ok.

GroggyLegs · 03/01/2022 10:47

@AyeRobot

Don't forget that in addition to men and non-men, lots of men divide women into fuckable and non-fuckable, so another person moving into the latter category is neither here or there to them.

This is spot on for most men.

Males & females live in parallel universes - men havent got a clue (& don't really give a shit) how our world works.

ArtemesiaK · 03/01/2022 10:46

I had a falling out with my (adult,40s) daughter in similar circumstances recently. If it's hard to accept a male's opinion on this I think it must be harder to accept that your own daughter, who've you've brought up to notice the injustices that the female sex experience, prefers to side with with men. She belongs to a group who want to include everyone and "be kind" and is afraid of opening her eyes to what is happening in case she loses her friends.... I have been told to never bring up the subject again. :(

thedancingbear · 03/01/2022 10:45

@Whatwouldscullydo

Urgh

I'm.so sick.of this marginalised group nonsense.

Since when were heterosexual white males ( which are a large proportion ofnthide whi claim to be trans ) marginalised.

Do they not see they have been conned into believing this

Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you

Try going in the pub at the bottom of my road on a Friday night as a trans woman and see how long it is before someone knocks your lights out

Try working as a teacher as a trans woman and see how long it is before the good denizens of this site petition for their kids to be removed from your care

HeadNorth · 03/01/2022 10:44

@Shedmistress

Although I guess I threw at him that he has contempt for women. When he absolutely isn’t that man at all. (Well perhaps very slightly in light of his comments)

He does have contempt for women when he thinks he can override our wants and he will open the door for men to invade our spaces.

That's exactly what that is.

We say no. But he feels we are too stupid to have our own opinions about it and he knows better.

I think that is unfair. I suspect many women are perfectly happy with post-op transexuals accessing female spaces. The controversy is around self ID and the fact many people don't realise surgery is not a prerequisite to formally change gender.

Personally I think the DH's position is reasonable. The OP does not. It is up to her how she responds to a difference of view in her marriage - I am happy for DH to think differently to me on any number of issues and would be most disturbed if he expected me to agree with him on absolutely everything.

OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 03/01/2022 10:43

For me this is on another level to having different views on socio-political or economic policy or similar. Gender ideology is a deeply misogynistic movement, and believing womanhood is a feeling in a man’s head or a descriptor of anyone without a penis is indeed misogynistic and dismissive of women as fully-fledged human beings. To keep it would be more akin to discovering my partner was racist - it’s believing a group of other people to be “lesser” than that they see as the default because of the group’s shared characteristic. I could live with a difference of political views, but not something so fundamental as that.

PleasantBirthday · 03/01/2022 10:41

But that those who have taken such drastic action deserve to be considered women.

Being a woman is not some kind of reward for not having a penis.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/01/2022 10:37

Urgh

I'm.so sick.of this marginalised group nonsense.

Since when were heterosexual white males ( which are a large proportion ofnthide whi claim to be trans ) marginalised.

Do they not see they have been conned into believing this

jeaux90 · 03/01/2022 10:36

He's probably one of those men so aghast at some men choosing to remove their genitals that he thinks they should be prioritised over women. I honestly think some men are so traumatised by that thought they think we are just being mean.

Shedmistress · 03/01/2022 10:32

Although I guess I threw at him that he has contempt for women. When he absolutely isn’t that man at all. (Well perhaps very slightly in light of his comments)

He does have contempt for women when he thinks he can override our wants and he will open the door for men to invade our spaces.

That's exactly what that is.

We say no. But he feels we are too stupid to have our own opinions about it and he knows better.

RoyalCorgi · 03/01/2022 10:30

@TheWeeDonkey

I think its weird that people think not allowing males into women's private spaces is an 'extreme view'.

Me too. I also think it's not up to the OP's husband to be deciding which men women should allow or not allow into their spaces.

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 03/01/2022 10:29

I guess it would be unfair to ask him to ‘recant’ as it were.

I suppose I’m upset that if I, as a woman, tell him I feel uncomfortable with male bodied people in women’s spaces, regardless of genitalia, he can’t respect that.

OP posts:

DeckardK · 03/01/2022 10:25

If he actually called me a bigot I would be upset too, so I hope he apologies for that when you talk about this again.

Our biggest disagreement came when we were watching a woodwork program (random!) and one of the contestants was someone who looked like a man, but was called she by the presenter and judges - it got my goat, especially as my children were really confused. My DH couldn't see the issue and thought I was being offensive not to refer to him as her - it's harder to stick to your principles on an individual, rather than societal basis and he thought that made me unkind.

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 03/01/2022 10:25

@PaterPower

What are his opinions on trans men out of interest?

Does he consider them men when they’ve had their breasts removed? Or do they have to have had phalloplasty? Does he think they should be considered male for the purposes of joining all male groups (eg Masonic lodges)?

Would he consider it appropriate that a trans man (at whatever stage of surgery they were at) would be authorised to conduct an intimate body search on him? Would he (really) feel totally comfortable if that were to happen?

Im not 100% sure on his views on trans men but Im fairly sure he wouldn’t have an issue with either them joining the masons etc or the search thing. I just think that biological women are just not a threat to men in any way so they have no issues with them.

I suppose like I have no issue over Cubs/scouts being mixed sex but I have a serious issue with the reverse for girlguiding.

I thought my husband was different as he has always shared childcare as much as possible/does his share of the housework/very respectful of women’s boundaries/is very fair in his management position at work, looks to appoint women etc in what’s a very male dominated industry.

I’m hopeful he just needs to do some more research on the issue

OP posts:

HeadNorth · 03/01/2022 10:20

So he thinks a woman is simply a man without a penis?

Like many, he maybe thinks old school transexuals, as they used to be called, who have undergone surgery should be able to live fully as women. I agree with him, but I also accept others may have different views. Including my DH because we are not a hive mind.

Look, DH and I are Scottish and survived an incredibly divisive referendum that split familes, where we voted different ways. Because we respect each others right to our own views and opinions. That works for my marriage, maybe it won't work for yours. But expecting my life partner to agree with me on everything would not form the basis of a stable and equal relationship for me.

I can respect other views, but you can force me to agree with them. As a great female leader Queen Elizabeth said: "I have no desire to make windows into men's souls." Or the great scientist Galileo 'it still moves'. What is gained from trying to force your DH to 'recant'?

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 03/01/2022 10:15

@DeckardK

My DH has voiced similar to me in the past - concern over my hardline position and a little bit of distaste with it even.

The problem is he isn't as invested in this as I am, he doesn't spend hours reading and watching, writing emails etc. So when he sees me change from 'be kind' to a hardline stance it takes him a while to catch up - like anyone who engages with the facts though, he doesn't have any argument once he digests the information.

It's part of why we are in this mess as lots of us are left leaning, liberal thinking and our inclination was inclusion at the start - I wasn't upset by my DHs view as it's a big topic and I knew once he thought about it and read up, he would reach the logical conclusion.

Thanks. I’m hopeful that this is where we are too.

I too am much more invested and generally keep an eye on the awful stuff on Twitter to stay abreast of everything while writing to MPs etc.

It’s just upsetting that my own husband would say that he thinks I’m bigoted. Still feeling quite hurt about that this morning. Although I guess I threw at him that he has contempt for women. When he absolutely isn’t that man at all. (Well perhaps very slightly in light of his comments)

OP posts:

SunflowersInTheShade · 03/01/2022 10:09

those who have taken such drastic action deserve to be considered women

"Woman" is not an honour (like a knighthood for example) to be awarded to a deserving man. A man, by definition, can never be a woman.

He doesn't get to decide and impose his views on the millions of women who disagree with him.

DisforDarkChocolate · 03/01/2022 10:04

So he thinks a woman is simply a man without a penis?

I wouldn't be happy with that either.

DeckardK · 03/01/2022 10:04

My DH has voiced similar to me in the past - concern over my hardline position and a little bit of distaste with it even.

The problem is he isn't as invested in this as I am, he doesn't spend hours reading and watching, writing emails etc. So when he sees me change from 'be kind' to a hardline stance it takes him a while to catch up - like anyone who engages with the facts though, he doesn't have any argument once he digests the information.

It's part of why we are in this mess as lots of us are left leaning, liberal thinking and our inclination was inclusion at the start - I wasn't upset by my DHs view as it's a big topic and I knew once he thought about it and read up, he would reach the logical conclusion.

Soontobe60 · 03/01/2022 10:03

[quote HermioneKipper]@WhereYouLeftIt I agree with you. I will have another discussion with him soon. I’m hoping he just hasn’t fully understood all the issues at play[/quote]
Buy him a copy of Trans. Then talk to him again.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 03/01/2022 09:54

@Oblomov22

"I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances. "

Unfortunately I think you may be wrong on this and he is correct.
BBC : "However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawfull_."

This is because in law, the Equality Act of 2010, and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, gave trans rights.

OP isnt wrong to to have her opinion and believe those things