Disagreement with husband about trans debate

But even then, I just don't want to change or share female single sex facilities with male people, however they identify, whether they have a GRC or not, whether they have had SRS or fake boobs or facial feminisation surgery or not, whether they are old or gay or delightful or a relative or friend. I don't want to think about the genital status of a random male person at all.

Just no. Keep out.

I make one exception and that's for young boys who need adult supervision. Otherwise, if you are male and older than about 10, know that you are making me feel uncomfortable and creeping me out because you don't recognise boundaries placed in law and operated through a social contract to protect me from your sex class.

And if you say that you have been using women's spaces for 40 years 'without incident', well, hear it from me, what you have actually been doing is undermining 1000s of women's feelings of dignity, privacy and safety in their own spaces for 40 years. Maybe the fact that you are 6'4" and obviously male is why women haven't said anything to you...

How dare those sexist doctors at Charing Cross and parliamentarians etc give away women's spaces so lightly to men! We were not asked - but the answer is No.

As an aside, I notice many of the middle aged men who tell us they are surgically committed to their trans journey get very misty eyed at the thought that, if only they (and all kids now expressing a cross sex identity) could have had puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as a child, their life would have been so much better, as they might then more readily 'pass' as an adult of the opposite sex.

If your husband would also like to suggest how to recognise the 5-10% of current ""trans"" kids whose gender issues would benefit by being treated by sterilisation/genital mutilation that may be...illuminating.

Perhaps insane for even having a debate when clearly men are men, and can use male facilities?

What don't you agree with and why?

What the fuck have I just read in these comments!! You're all insane

The frequent assertion by transactivists is that males who claim a gender identity that is not 'man' will use female spaces and services, regardless of how women might feel about it and even if it upsets or excludes vulnerable women. This means they assume trans people in general will not respect women's need for single-sex spaces and will not adhere to laws and social conventions that enable such provision for women.

Why do transactivists think that trans people cannot be decent human beings and avoid using single-sex spaces and services that are for women?

That's why the Ladies'/female changing room/prison/insert any other female space is such an appealing place for both the completely harmless transwoman who wants to go to the loo in peace AND the predatory male of any gender who wants to commit offences - no other men.

When it originally appeared I think the idea was about allowing fully surgically transitioned transwomen access to places like women's toilets, but not those who were not fully transitioned.

Now arguably at one time, when encountering a transwoman was vanishingly rare, that wasn't so much a practical problem. But under current conditions, I am not so sure. Becaus asking any male presenting as a transwoman who appears to use the women's toilets to prove their qualifications would be pretty invasive.

The problem would be the people taking the piss.

I have asked this question a number of times to people who think the ‘gotcha’ of genital inspections cleverly stopped debate. (Well, it certainly was a thought stopping point for those believing it, so I guess they believe everyone else will see just how ‘powerful’ an argument it is, too )

I am yet to get an answer. Maybe redlake will be the poster to explain that if the law was tightened and toilets and changing rooms were to become legally able to exclude any male over the age of 8, with or without a GRC, would those males currently using the women’s spaces respect that law.

And respect the needs of the women and children who use those spaces?

The way I got DP to understand was to remind him that biological sex and gender identity are two completely different things.

Gender is whatever you want it to be, that’s what trans people want to change, who they ‘identify’ as.

Biological sex is a fact, it’s doesn’t matter what cosmetic surgery you have or what drugs you take you cannot change your genetics and your biological sex.

And that confusion is the entire problem with the ‘trans debate’.

Ereshkigalangcleg

Logic isn’t one of pp’s strengths. Remember they have been conditioned to fully believe they are the most marginalised and vulnerable.

Once you fully believe that, all logic must therefore abandon you. Because all those single mothers with children who have been evicted from their home by an abuser, women just out of prison with no family support, women belonging to religious groups where females are property and have little choice in their lives including when to have sex….

I mean that is off the top of my head and I think there are plenty of sub groups of the UK population that could be the most marginalised and vulnerable group.

But the mantra doesn’t allow critical thought at all.

Yes, because most tyre fitters have £20k+ sitting round to pursue an ET claim, haven't they? Would you say this to a black or gay person?

You do realise they'd have to sue as well? Or a woman?

But at least one person is fine with that, as long as the violence is male-on-male.

No one said male/male violence is ok. It happens all the time, male violence is a societal problem. Not sure why you think it's for women to tackle though.

That's dangerous dinner party talk

It's surely not tricky to 'police' when it comes to prisons, hosp wards, sports etc...

A man without a penis is still a man.

But still impossible to police effectively.

What you're saying is that trans people are uniquely incapable of respecting the law and are inherently disrespectful of other people's boundaries and completely untrustworthy. Why do you think trans people can't be decent human beings?

Just read thread.
Toilets AGAIN? Really?

Too Tired

'Some Trans people may feel marginalised, some women may feel unsafe, some women may feel like women’s rights have been pushed aside for trans rights….. the list can go on.'

Out of interest, and noting feeling is not the same as being. Feeling is an interesting word to use in that post. Anyway.

Given you believe feeling marginalised is same level of discomfort as feeling unsafe.

It follows surely that being marginalised and being unsafe are equally unpleasant things to experience?

Being unsafe obviously means that whatever means a person is not safe, could well happen.

We all know In these conversations it's as good as always risk of sex offence being committed.
Against women AND GIRLS.

Just to follow this through (let's talk bogs again as seems to be inevitable!).

That statement says, logically.

That a male with a gender ID of woman.

Experiencing marginalisation due to being unable to use public toilets with ladies on the door.

Is equivalent in impact/ harm etc.

To a woman/ girl being sexually assaulted by a male in the ladies.

It's just a fact that we can't tell a TW who just wants to pee, from from a male with dodgy ideas.

Obviously.

We are REALLY good at noticing when anyone is male though.

So.

10 yo girl seriously sexually assaulted

Same level of 'badness' (sorry can't think of another word!

As a male who is a TW who is not allowed to pee in the ladies.

I'm pretty sure that follows. Let me know if not.

Like I said earlier, men essentially, pretty much all of them, and globally and through millennia of history.

Have major cases of Penis Worship. Their own obviously, but also in general.

There's loads been written about this obsession with the Power of the Mighty cock and how pretty much all men are followers of this belief.

I suspect not as much as has been written about penises and how fascinating, important, impressive and awesome they are.

Mainstream het porn is essentially pretty much essentially dick worship.

It's THE organ that means you are a MAN.

No penis- not a man.
Women- no penis- not a man.

Women are depressingly still seen by most men, really deep down and generally not consciously known- that men are people and everything else is in relation to men.

Women are not people who are different but a thing in themselves.

We are not men.
All the non men obviously go together.
The end. No more to it.

In what way are they marginalised?

If DH or one of his buddies lost his penis in an accident would that make them a woman?

If he wasn't married to you would he be happy with a TW partner?

What's wrong with third spaces?

OP, the post above by OhHolyJesus is helpful I think, and was along the lines of what I was thinking when I read your first post.
This is your life partner and it can be really hurtful when they have a different position to you in something that's important to you, and they infer that you are the one who is morally wrong.
Tbh, I would have said and thought what he thinks, once upon a time. Just because I hadn't really explored it and thought about it much. Once I did, I changed my mind. Try not to feel too personally hurt, if you can. When the time's right, try to discuss specific points or news stories, women's sports or medicalising young people for example. Or send him an article or comment piece and say youd wondered what he'd think. Chip away. You are married to him, so hopefully you will have common ground in the end.

Interesting that he thinks that a man without a penis loses physical advantages such as being on average 30 pounds heavier and six inches taller than women. That his heavier bones, lower muscle-to=fat ratio, greater punch power and hand grasp will not be a threat to almost any woman if he chooses to be aggressive. Men don't need a penis to be angry and violent. Their fists can still punch and their legs can still kick.

I mean, I am not sure that sharing childcare is really that relevant. Lots of women share his view, or are even more extreme supporters of trans activism, so I am not convinced the issue is that he is a closet sexist.

I thought my husband was different as he has always shared childcare as much as possible/does his share of the housework/very respectful of women’s boundaries/is very fair in his management position at work...I’m hopeful he just needs to do some more research on the issue

Coming late to this thread (I've been busy elsewhere) and wanted to say that much of what you share OP chimes with me.

I asked my DH if a man who lost his penis in a rare, freak accident 'would then become a woman'. He was silent. I wouldn't say it the meant he did a u-turn and roundly agreed with me but something shifted.

He had insinuated that I was bigoted rather that calling me a bigot outright, but it was a key moment, along with some really silly comparisons he made with racism in sport and some other text-book TRA examples (he was reading the Guardian at the time, and donating to them at the time 🙄).

It hurt and I was raging, disappointed and seriously considering how this would work if he had that opinion of me. I pushed a bit too hard at times and we came to an agreement that I would only focus big news stories or key steps forward in the wider feminism movement.

We have since discussed things that come up. He's listened to the Nolan podcast. Sport remains a key are and he has slowly but surely come to realise how his view of me, based on what others think, rather than who he knows me to be, was unjust and simply wrong. He has never supported Self ID but was/is in the BeKind camp. He now longer considered himself a labour supporter and listens more. It has taken time.

It's not over yet but he supports me quietly and mildly celebrates wins as and when they come.

I share this to, without being patronising, give you hope. I hope you find your way through. It may not be one question, one news story, one argument, it may be a slow build. I think you are quite right to be furious and horribly hurt. Really sorry this happened