Disagreement with husband about trans debate

Ask you DH if he would honestly consider a transwoman who has undergone full surgery as a prospective romantic or sexusl partner for himself, without any prejudice? Would he honestly consider a transwoman as exactly the same as any other woman in this context? If not, why should we accept them in our changing rooms and prisons?

Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you

This is not the most oppressed group in society, like we're frequently told.

Try being mentally ill in a psychiatric ward with no family to be your voice

The being a child locked with their violent parent with no knowledge of the outside world or how to get help

Try living with life coiled in syndrome or paralysis and not being able to do anything or even communicate efficiently

Not the most oppressed group in society

Me too. Enough. They are not more marginalised than children or disabled people - mentally or physically. Saying they have it worse than women. Where's the evidence for that?

It irritates me so much even I hear that they are the 'most oppressed group. Unbelievably self centred, some people need to step out of their little bubble.

You can Google for identity lists.

Here's one, scroll down for a list of some of the gender identities that have been defined.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/types-of-gender-identity

As for the labels for gender don't bother pondering on it.

Transgender list includes agender (no feeling that you have a gender inside. Usually defined as very strongly felt).

Agender is part of trans community.

I don't have a feeling of gender inside.
I have no desire to label myself as trans. Because I don't believe, and I've never seen evidence. That apart from a small number people who are very distressed by their sexed bodies and desperate for it to look like other sex. That many people at all have this feeling.
That vast majority of people do is a HUGE random unsupported statement and it's one that underpins the whole transgender philosophy.
No trans org will want it studied ever. Because the results I'm sure would pull out one of the main foundations.

[quote Enough4me]@CheeseMmmm thanks for trying to help me out, but I'm still finding the language confusing.

Does agender mean has no defined gender (genderless) or is it a defined gender, as far as gender is defined by those who believe in them?

Where is a baby's gender when it's conceived / born?

I don't know how it appears, is it just personality?[/quote]
I'd say that (personal view)-

Some people obv have an internal conviction that they need to change their sex. A hatred of their sexed body, I imagine combined with a personality that is very far from the sexed roles in society.

The first is can be very severe in impact on the person. Severe depression, self harm, suicidal thoughts/ intent.

Same area as people who look in the mirror and see a very overweight person when they are seriously underweight, it's a psychological issue and can be vv dangerous.

This would be the 'old school' transsexuals. Surgery to cosmetically alter body appearance to look like opposite sex as much as poss I think was last resort if nothing else worked.

(Anyone who can correct if wrong please do. I looked up sex dysmorphia /dysphoria (never sure which right) and found NOTHING on first couple pages Google. It's all gender dysphoria which we all know is a massive range of things many of which no issues with sexed body.
I find this worrying tbh.
NHS it's not on mental health list, gender dysphoria not there but separate presumably because as we all know it's not a MH condition these days...)

Second is just the standard discomfort/hatred etc with narrow sex roles, or simple not confirming to all (IE you're not Barbie or gi Joe).

Aka personality as you mention.

I'd say 95% of the time their arguments etc are about them. Why so mean to ME? Not even the group of trans people with similar experiences/transition changes etc. Just one person, themselves.

This.

To which my reply is: 'the answer to your challenges cannot be to remove rights, equality and access from everyone biologically female. That is not an option. Your needs must be met in a different way, with a solution that works for all. That's inclusion.'

@CheeseMmmm thanks for trying to help me out, but I'm still finding the language confusing.

Does agender mean has no defined gender (genderless) or is it a defined gender, as far as gender is defined by those who believe in them?

Where is a baby's gender when it's conceived / born?

I don't know how it appears, is it just personality?

Enough4me

Unfortunately that's not how the rules work.

1. Agender indicates a belief in internal gender and furthermore a general acceptance and support for gender > sex.

1. If you think sex matters you are cis. That's that. If you live in countries like China, India, Afghanistan then everyone is 'cis'. Even though that indicates that having a trans ID is not a deeply known fundamental characteristic known from when vv young.

1. If you are transsexual and therefore indisputably trans and you don't agree gender > sex. Then you are as awful as women who think that. Truscum (not sure if still used). Desperate for cis acceptance. Deep seated transphobia. An unenlightened dangerous Fool.

1. Gender identities must be respected. Unless they are declared by certain groups of women. Then it's aok to tell them their gender, or assume it.

1. Being agender is very rare. This is a fact because of...

1. Anyone who says they have no gender id, well women who say that. And think sex important. They're either too at home with their role as feminine. Or they're lying. They're cis. That's that.

In short.

Say whatever gender you fancy.
What you say will be ignored.
As it will for the vast majority of anyone who doesn't fit the transgender mould.
Esp if woman who is not young, and not spending 90% of time talking about it and posting online etc.

I mean it's all rubbish.

It's just men telling us what we are as always have done.

Why when we get posters come to discuss sex/gender on this board, is it pretty much always a person making the case for themselves?

Random thought. Vv could be way off for sure!

I'm sure many of us on here are aware/ have experienced the 'everyone's mum/mum figure' type thing.

Women in general irl are often expected to do things that are sort of female stereotypes + stereotypes about mums iyswim. Usually as so common nobody involved thinks twice. And age or whether have kids beside the point.

It's a bit part of the underlying reason this site gets so much attention.

Shock when posters here have un-mumsy views. Or in fact any views which aren't to do with what mums should think about.

The reason for the derision, outrage, discomfort. Sometimes rage.
At not being docile, fluffy, people pleasing, caring, selfless, kind women as mums are supposed to be.

Thinking on.. Stacks of men and boys are vvv attached to, devoted to their mums. (Not saying anything wrong with that except when causes probs for others!).

And stacks of mums dote on their boys. Favour them, shower praise, ignore poor behaviour, worry about, look after even when son in 40s etc. Again I'm sure they don't realise that, subconscious.

Here on Mumsnet, mum types expected.

I wonder if that's why males come here sometimes esp to Feminism. Looking for reassurance, forgiveness, comfort etc.

I'm thinking of the ones who post on threads about prostitution whose posts are clear that they pay for sex but for them it's a need, they're lovely people, respect the women etc.

And posters on this topic who are posting to say how they are different. After all this, surely you will agree I'm ok? All I want is kindness, understanding. Surely you won't be so uncaring? You must see that I personally deserve acceptance, kindness, care?

Dunno. Could be way off mark.

If am. Why always the same pattern of posts?

It's pretty much always like this.

• Why are YOU (small bunch of women chatting away corner of internet) excluding ME?

• It's about groups of people. What having so many things go self ID, or self id with a seemingly rubbish assessment process, means for female human juveniles and adults. It's not personal. It's not about YOU. It's about impact across the board, millions of people.

• But what you think ignores the fact there are lovely harmless people like me out there. What's the problem with me? Why exclude me from single sex anything?

• Not to do with you. Sure you are lovely. However this is across whole populations. Laws and considerations and risks and other reasons for the limited number of single sex things for women/girls. (And men/boys don't want female people in with them in those situations).

• (ignores the above)... This is my history, when I realised, difficulties a lot. My transition process was xyz. I am currently in ABC relationship. It's been tough, all I want is to live my life quietly as a woman. What have I done that means I shouldn't access the things for women?

• Sounds vv hard. Really sorry for those things that you experienced (Note posters always comment to posts about having a bad time and always express sympathy. And it's obviously genuine.

Then usually goes downhill.

It's fascinating one you notice, how posters here to put trans points to us. Majority trans themselves occasionally trans loved one.

I'd say 95% of the time their arguments etc are about them. Why so mean to ME? Not even the group of trans people with similar experiences/transition changes etc. Just one person, themselves.

There is essentially zero point having one approach thinking of groups, population level. And the other approach in the discussion thinking at individual level and individual is them.

Mind blown again, I can now see I can identify as agender as I don't have a gender and think gender is based on stereotypes not science.

I was surprised to find out recently that despite being heterosexual with DC, I can identify as queer if I want to without doing anything. It seems the thing bored actresses have started.

I can be queer agender.
I must be missing a gap with language again, the new 'evolved' language cannot be this bizarre flexible?

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur, I've been there too. Funnily enough after the last two years everyone I know has now gone wtf and we can resume normal communication.

As far as I know there is no chromosomal combination that makes anyone agender. However, when it comes to agender meaning "doesn't have a gender" that describes pretty much everyone I know.

I'd avoid the subject, but if you are pushed ask for an explanation of agender. That will lead them down a rabbit hole, at which point just down another glass of wine

That’s some shaky moral high ground she’s standing on there.

Even shakier scientific ground, as well as being incredibly ableist by using others medical conditions to imply that they are some kind of third sex.

[quote CiaoForDiNiaoSaur]@RepentMotherfucker thanks. I'm not sure her opinion will change. Her spouse (born female) identifies as Agender - I'm using the words they use because I'm respectful like that. I said that said spouse was biologically female and friend said she isn't. Then something about there being more than 2 types of chromosome so just because someone is AFAB doesn't mean they are female.
I think it's going to have to become an undiscussed topic between us.[/quote]
Gosh. What can you even do with that? I respect people for forming their own views on gender identity but to be chastised that we don’t understand the science on sex is difficult to get past. That’s some shaky moral high ground she’s standing on there.

TurquoiseBaubles

I have seen some trans people use this on Mn. And allies as well. I was surprised to see it.

KW illustrates the central issue here (and is not the 'isolated case' they are often dismissed as).

Either KW is not truly trans - in which case KW demonstrates that there is no way to know which male person is truly trans and which isn't and will use access to female spaces to harm females,

or KW is truly trans - in which case KW demonstrates that some TW are sex offenders and predators who will and do use the access to female spaces to harm females.

It raises a number of important questions. Is being trans incompatible with being a sex offender? Does that mean a sex offense committed mean that the person never was actually trans - in which case is trans something only non sex offending males are allowed to do? A privilege remitted if they offend? Because that to me seems wrong and deeply unfair.

Or do the political lobby have to face and own that any male may identify as a TW, there will inevitably be TW who will be sex offenders and use their access to female spaces to offend, and females cannot be expected to just deal with this as part of life's rich pattern - it's part of why females have single sex spaces. And since the safe TW cannot be separated from the TW who present a risk until after a female has been hurt - in the same way no other male person can - this means third spaces are required if TW prefer not to use male spaces, facilities and resources. And females who use mixed sex spaces consent to that risk.

And that's setting aside the huge additional issue that even if every single TW was proven not to be a risk to women, many women would still be excluded from their own space by the presence of someone who is male. And the first job of a female resource, facility or service is to be inclusive to all females.

@RepentMotherfucker thanks. I'm not sure her opinion will change. Her spouse (born female) identifies as Agender - I'm using the words they use because I'm respectful like that. I said that said spouse was biologically female and friend said she isn't. Then something about there being more than 2 types of chromosome so just because someone is AFAB doesn't mean they are female.
I think it's going to have to become an undiscussed topic between us.

Goodness knows what people with other conditions make of it, like the people with dyslexia

Behold. A dyslexic as fuck person has arrived to so share a badly spelled opinion. (I.e. me)

The faux code speak is doing my biscuit in. Totally throws off my ability to track a line of text. I hate it and it is excluding me from this debate #notallneurodiversepeople

/gen/(ish)

I thought Karen said she was trans, so is definitely trans as trans is self declared and being a rapist doesn't impact on this.

Following my learning on here I can see some trans would want to say that they are more genuine and therefore 'real trans'. Of course if Karen says she's 'real trans', then 'real trans' people will need another option, possibly 'really real trans'?

It's this language I'm struggling with. It's confusing, I know what I am, an adult human female aka women, but forms ask me to identify a gender.

How do I selfD as an actual woman if the word woman includes men?

So hang in there. The tide is on the turn. And in the meantime.

I had a disagreement with one of my oldest and best friends about trans issues today. Obviously I think my opinion is right, but I accidentally offended her and even though I apologised at the time I feel so crap about it. (I have severe depression and anxiety so get disproportionately upset sometimes)
Sorry. I don't have anyone I can talk to about it in real life :(

Are we allowed to say "real trans" and "pretend trans" now? That was a deletable/bannable offence at one point.

I thought every person who said they were trans was trans, no matter what. Of course, all trans people were also nice. So if a person wasn't nice, they weren't trans. Not just pretend trans, but not trans at all. It's very simple really.

So the likes of Karen White isn't and never was trans. Similarly detransitioners didn't detransition, they were never trans in the first place. The fact that they said they were trans therefore they were trans at the time they were trans is irrelevant

It's all perfectly clear as mud

And thanks @Helleofabore as that has opened my mind even more.

@ErynIsTrans, helle has tried to answer my question as she raised the language 'real trans' as this is now being used and I wanted to understand what this means, but her answer raises another question.

It sounds as though trans people don't know if others are genuine trans or not, but I wonder if this is correct?