Page 3 | Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

NutellaEllaElla · 2022-01-02T17:31:18+00:00

[[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/03d57d22-6b4c-11ec-bb37-1b2eed73c283?shareToken=50ee4aa6b8b624eb06f266289f146714 Share token]] Choice quotes: "On Christmas Eve, Scotland’s prison population stood at 7,435, with only 259 listed as women. A total of 15 prisoners were trans, 12 of them trans women and three trans men. It is understood that all are currently held in female units as previous experience of trans men in the male estate had caused tensions." "In England and Wales there have been a small number of incidents of violence and sexual violence involving female prisoners being attacked by trans prisoners....The study by Dr Matthew Maycock of Dundee University’s school of education and social work turned up no such disturbing behaviour in Scotland, with only some discomfort about very limited consensual sexual activity. One Scottish Prison Service (SPS) source said: “There have been incidents, but very minor. No one can say for certain that nothing significant has happened, but if it has none has been reported.” However, Maycock’s report did identify fears among female inmates of predatory behaviour by some trans prisoners, with one suggesting “the transitions of transgender people might be an attempt by paedophiles or other sex offenders to access cis-women in the female prison estate”. Another woman told of a transwoman prisoner in her work party whose views “were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.”

DrBlackbird · 02/01/2022 21:12

@Namechangeforthis88

As it goes, I know Matthew Maycock. He's a nice guy, and no fool. It wouldn't entirely have shocked me if he'd demonstrated more insight into the particular vulnerability of women in prison. Bit disappointed.

Perhaps a generous reading of that paper is that’s it’s difficult to find a balance between differing views of trans prisoners especially in Scotland and he was navigating a difficult landscape? But the concerns did not have to be labelled as prejudice and I was surprised by his doing so given also the acknowledgment that these women had experienced male violence.

Soontobe60 · 02/01/2022 20:50

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

Louis Theroux did a film about the prison system in California some years ago. There were many prisoners who declared they were trans once they entered the prison system. They were mostly homosexual men before that, and in prison had ‘relationships’ with other prisoners who didn’t identify as TW and claimed to be straight. He interviewed one of the trans prisoners after they were released. He was no longer presenting as a woman, and admitted that many male gay prisoners ‘transitioned’ whilst inside because they had an easier life. The men using these trans prisoners were VERY male! When people are incarcerated, they will do whatever they can to make their time in prison as easy as possible. For a male rapist, who may well be treated particularly harshly by other male prisoners, they now have the ‘get out of jail free’ card in the form of self ID. Genuine transwomen who end up in prison deserve to be treated with dignity and safety - but this must be within the male estate or a separate prison for transgender prisoners. It cannot be at the expense of the safety and dignity of female prisoners. Ever.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2022 20:42

@RepentMotherfucker

That's shocked me to my very core that has. I have met loads of men and the idea that male criminals would lie about something so they could get a cushy number and possibly get to see some tits, well, it's taken me completely by surprise.

My eyebrows are right up by my hairline, I tell you.

Greenfields124 · 02/01/2022 20:37

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

So transwomen are women but transmen are also women… interesting

Indeed!

Soontobe60 · 02/01/2022 20:37

@heathspeedwell

Just read that the policy to place male offenders in women's prisons was signed off by Gordon Pike, then a manager in the Scottish Prison Service. And now a convicted paedophile.

And these people think they are 'being kind'.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-offender-gordon-pike-helped-set-prison-trans-rules-q8n3lnksv An interesting little read about him from a couple of years ago

FrancescaContini · 02/01/2022 20:31

“Very minor incidents” - oh well, that makes it okay then. FFS.

RepentMotherfucker · 02/01/2022 20:31

That's shocked me to my very core that has. I have met loads of men and the idea that male criminals would lie about something so they could get a cushy number and possibly get to see some tits, well, it's taken me completely by surprise.

DryHeave · 02/01/2022 20:27

Oh my goodness what a surprise, I’m so surprised. Who could have predicted something so surprising?

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 02/01/2022 20:00

So transwomen are women but transmen are also women… interesting

powershowerforanhour · 02/01/2022 19:56

The lyrics of The Auld Triangle need amended to reflect the new reality.

Namechangeforthis88 · 02/01/2022 19:54

As it goes, I know Matthew Maycock. He's a nice guy, and no fool. It wouldn't entirely have shocked me if he'd demonstrated more insight into the particular vulnerability of women in prison. Bit disappointed.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2022 19:48

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

you could be right and this could definitely be something that never has happened and never happens because it definitely seems implausible that males in prison would take advantage of a system that promises them all the perks of a female prison

AlfonsoTheGoat · 02/01/2022 19:45

That's a pretty good trick: be male and commit a crime, go to jail and claim to be trans, be sent to a woman's prison, change back to male after release.

Of course, it would never happen.

WomanStillNotAFeeling · 02/01/2022 19:42

participants who had limited prior experience of transgender people tended to be less accepting

FFS has he listened to any women, I have plenty of experience with transwomen, each experience has left me less likely to accept them in womens spaces. I started as an ally

WomanStillNotAFeeling · 02/01/2022 19:39

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

All that appears to be necessary for a male to be housed in the female prison is for that one male prisoner to say they are a woman and we’re expected to accept it as fact.

Original poster

NutellaEllaElla · 02/01/2022 19:10

I can't tell you how much i'm surprised

OP posts:

heathspeedwell · 02/01/2022 19:04

Another thing to consider is that women who go to prison tend to have short sentences because they are incarcerated for minor crimes such as non-payment of fines.

Male people who go to prison tend to have much longer sentences. So a single transwoman in prison could make a disproportionate number number of women feel extremely uncomfortable.

DrBlackbird · 02/01/2022 19:00

This researcher’s apparent lack of sensitivity towards female victims of male violence and male privilege and control speaks volumes when he states This raises several questions around why there is such a diversity of views and what influence prison as a social space has on these views.. FGS. It really isn’t rocket science. Especially when his respondents are telling him why pretty bloody clearly.

For Freya, this resulted in feelings of vulnerability shaped by her views of the bodies of the transgender women she lived with in custody, bodies with different strengths in what could sometimes be a violent environment

Why should women who have experienced male violence have to live alongside natal male prisoners even if some female prisoners say they’re okay with it? That ought to be the bigger question.

AlfonsoTheGoat · 02/01/2022 18:47

@Artichokeleaves

Gosh I'm surprised. Are you surprised? I was surprised.

As for 'not much reported' - we know that many women's reports are denied, not recorded, lost, eaten by the Welsh Govt's dog..... great lengths are gone to to avoid recording because the evidence is really not wanted. There are MNetters who have attended a formal meeting to discuss concerns who then experienced those who led the meeting denying it had ever taken place or any woman had ever raised a concern with them.

So pull the other one, it's got bloody bells on it.

I don't know about you, but I'm surprised.

DrBlackbird · 02/01/2022 18:46

What’s interesting is how the original paper seems to take a much more sympathetic line of enquiry to trans women being housed in the female prison estate. And, I thought, was more critical of female prisoners expressing their concerns about being housed with trans women.

Around half of the participants in this study held views that were more closely aligned to the prejudiced views towards transgender people outlined in the British Social Attitudes Survey. Within the prison context this took a particular manifestation, insofar as some participants did not consider the transgender people they lived with as female, and in some instances suggested that they should be located in halls within prisons of their birth sex (in this instance located in male halls). These views are reflective of wider prejudices within society

And apparently Mathew Maycock unfortunate name for such research concludes that female prisoner’s concern about being housed with trans women is whether they previously knew a trans person or not viz … participants who had limited prior experience of transgender people tended to be less accepting

This seeming dismissal of actual concerns cited by some of the women about the size and male appearance of some trans women prisoners and his framing female prisoners views as prejudiced might provide an indication of the author’s general position.

TurquoiseBaubles · 02/01/2022 18:43

15 trans to 244 women (259-15) is actually nearer 1 in 16, and since the 15 may be higher and the 244 lower due to the fact that hose with GRCs don't count as trans but are included in the "women" figures, it may be a lot higher!

For example if there are 5 prisoners with GRCs, the numbers become 20 trans to 239 women, or more than 1 in 12. These numbers demonstrate clearly how a very small number of trans prisoners can skew the entire population.

5 may be thought unlikely, but since there are around 8000 male prisoners in Scotland (correct me if I'm wrong), 5 isn't an unreasonable possibility.

OldCrone · 02/01/2022 18:38

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

Do you have evidence that they don't?

BlueberryCheezecake · 02/01/2022 18:37

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

Abhannmor · 02/01/2022 18:34

How astonishing. Perhaps gender dysphoria is episodic though and I am being too harsh. Involuntary buncing we could call it.

Motorina · 02/01/2022 18:32

@heathspeedwell yup.

12 or 15 doesn't sound that many. But, when you do the maths, that's one in twenty. Which means every female prisoner is probably sharing living quarters, washing facilities, etc which someone with a dick.

That's an appalling breach of their rights.