Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

I read the article and there are two reasons trans women prisoners do not want to be imprisoned with other trans women. 1) they don’t like each other very much. They report not getting on with other trans women and finding them hard to live with. 2) they complain that in an all trans women unit they wouldn’t be able to “copy” real women to learn how to live as a woman. They want to live with real women to be socialised properly. They worry that living with trans women they wouldn’t pick up gender appropriate behaviours.

They really don’t seem to believe that trans women are women!

Imagine criminals lying...or manipulative sex offenders lying so they can get access to their chosen victims? Who'd have thought it possible...

Also there is the non-binary issue:

'I think there should be a separate wing within
a prison, for people who want to identify as
non-binary, but they can still have access to
the mainstream'

We're gonna need a bigger boat ...

I'm another one who is shocked that male criminals are taking advantage of the idiotic Scottish prison system. Shocked.

discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/i-want-the-male-and-the-female-wings-i-dont-want-a-special-trans-

I'm shocked that criminals would lie and deceive in prison! I thought we were meant to unconditionally believe them.

It is male supremacism. Plain and simple.

and marvel at how yet another institution for vulnerable women centres men again, enabled by self centred activists operating without democratic scrutiny.

Yes, @artichokeleaves, I was thinking that the other day. If transwomen are women, what's the problem with co-locating all the transwomen? I can see issues with distance from home, small units being expensive to run, and a limited regime, but if transwomen are women, surely they would be content in principle?

I would actually be interested to know if a non-trans male without a GRC from the male prison estate exerted his equal legal right to be living, sleeping and showering among females if he so wished, what the outcome would be. Because I strongly suspect that he could prove a case of discrimination, and being treated less favourably than other males.

Not to mention the Downview unit.

• presenting issue, TW too risky and dangerous to be in the female estate but wishing to be (one has to assume risk to females/ prison staff and prison situation)

• unit provided in the female estate so they could be there, in the estate, but with separate sleeping/washing facilities and distance, so some but limited contact with female prisoners

• TW in question kicked off and raised a legal case against this segregation

• TW got their way and were put full in female estate anyway, regardless of risk to female prisoners. Expensive unit now a white elephant.

Dichotomy never mentioned: TW wish to be in female estate to have identity recognised and be with other women. However they are very clear indeed that women and TW are not the same thing and they want to be with women, not other TW.

Women however are repeatedly scolded that there is no difference hence having male people forcibly inflicted on them with their consent being irrelevant.

This is a male supremacist policy involving a supposed legal right of access to females. While insisting that sex isn't a thing. It's beyond batshit.

Particularly as investigation by women's rights groups into this risk assessment process and the panels carefully considering each male person's case for entry discovered that the risk being assessed was exclusively to the male person . Ie would the TW be exposed to transphobia or harm from women prisoners. There was no consideration or representation of the women prisoners as stake holders, their needs and their vulnerabilities at all. You'd think they were just bits of furniture.

This absolutely proves that women are just what men say we are. That’s our definition. We are non-men. Any human that doesn’t make the cut of being a “proper man” is a woman. Women, transwomen, transmen.

Wait no, but this never happens does it?! At least that's what we're told 🤦🏻‍♀️

How long before someone claims it was something no one could have foreseen?

' senior SPS source said risk assessments are conducted before offenders born male and identifying as female are allowed into the female estate, and the validity of their claims is tested. “It is not, as some think, automatic on request,” the source said.'

Not heard that said before by prison peeps commenting on this topic.

Sounds like drivel to me. How would they assess whether invisible feelings are genuine?

He really should be pressed to give more info on that point...

“There have been incidents, but very minor. No one can say for certain that nothing significant has happened, but if it has none has been reported.”

What constitutes a "minor" incident?
Is there a sliding scale of minor to significant to so significant it mustn't be reported?

The really sad thing is the women report feeling confused and betrayed when the trans woman they have taken under their wing and looked after leaves prison and turns back into a man. How can they be expected to understand this?

What does this even mean? "with only some discomfort about very limited consensual sexual activity."

It's worth remembering the quote from James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance who said -

'We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

It's a massive experiment, using some of the most vulnerable women in society, to ensure that when other public spaces are taken over that those pushing for the erosion of single sex spaces can point to prisons and say 'well it works there'.

Given the institutional capture of the prison system, it just highlights the bravery of the woman who brought about the recent judicial review. For those who haven't read it, it acknowledged the fear and risk to women by the inclusion of transwomen (including those convicted of sexual offences) in the female prison estate but concluded that transwomen being able to socialise with 'other' female inmates was more important.

The researcher exposed their own biases fairly quickly, at least in the sectioned quoted in the OP.

In England and Wales there have been a small number of incidents…

What is a small number when you are talking about sexual violence? Using the word ‘small’ in this context suggests insignificant and not worthy of further investigation. Is that how we approach sexual violence against women now? Oh, wait…

It all comes back to safeguarding, doesn’t it?

Aren't sex offenders normally put into a separate wing anyway? Male ones who are not claiming trans? I'm actuallt surprised/shocked that they are being put in with women, especially considering their crime.

Well, quite. I mean who'd have thought, back when they were hammering out the prison provisions according to Judith Butler's Big Book of Good Ideas for Lovely Parties, that the completely innocent and innocuous idea that people can change sex and indeed express their gender fluid desires freely without let or hindrance would have seen such surprising repercussions pop up like this?

It's a right shame, it is, that the nasty criminals have been spoiling it for everyone with their filthy big fibs.

I'm also surprised. I would never have imagined that men in prison might take advantage of a loophole that might allow them to be housed in a less violent setting where they would be among the strongest and most powerful people there and also be able to see naked females, and possibly even touch some. I'm utterly surprised at the dishonesty of these prisoners.