Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

NutellaEllaElla · 2022-01-02T17:31:18+00:00

[[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/03d57d22-6b4c-11ec-bb37-1b2eed73c283?shareToken=50ee4aa6b8b624eb06f266289f146714 Share token]] Choice quotes: "On Christmas Eve, Scotland’s prison population stood at 7,435, with only 259 listed as women. A total of 15 prisoners were trans, 12 of them trans women and three trans men. It is understood that all are currently held in female units as previous experience of trans men in the male estate had caused tensions." "In England and Wales there have been a small number of incidents of violence and sexual violence involving female prisoners being attacked by trans prisoners....The study by Dr Matthew Maycock of Dundee University’s school of education and social work turned up no such disturbing behaviour in Scotland, with only some discomfort about very limited consensual sexual activity. One Scottish Prison Service (SPS) source said: “There have been incidents, but very minor. No one can say for certain that nothing significant has happened, but if it has none has been reported.” However, Maycock’s report did identify fears among female inmates of predatory behaviour by some trans prisoners, with one suggesting “the transitions of transgender people might be an attempt by paedophiles or other sex offenders to access cis-women in the female prison estate”. Another woman told of a transwoman prisoner in her work party whose views “were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.”

CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 00:07

When they're not busy doing the other sorts of things that have been in news, reports etc...

CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 00:06

RightsRaptor not comfy with that comment about role models for various reasons can post if you want to hear.

Anyway when they say copy women it's nothing to do with personality etc.

It's about external things.

How walk, speak, stand, mannerisms, how move hands when speaking, that stuff.

Nothing to do with the women as people.

Just to copy as if mobile mannequins.

CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 00:02

Male and female should NEVER be in mixed situations of any type in prison.

That is the most obvious, basic thing. The risks to women are so totally bleeding obvious, and really horrific.

I'm sure there must be international orgs that have this on their list of women's/ human rights stuff. I'll look.

And WHY is risk of pregnancy never mentioned??? That's a fucking huge point. And should surely be a NO for all political persuasions:

Left-
what about rape.
Terrible for the women in prison, the baby etc to be conceived born in prison.
Etc

Right-
Sex is enjoyable prison should be punishment not like 18-30s hol
Having baby means mother gets special treatment, special part of prison once born
Women like having babies why should be allowed conceive in prison. More benefits when out!
Etc.

WHY THE SILENCE ON THIS?

*** Oh and FYI dunno if all aware that there have been TW in women's estate since AT LEAST the 80s.
Before GRC before equalities act.
Wtf, right?

Rightsraptor · 03/01/2022 23:58

Picking up on Eresh's point above, convicted women are hardly good role models because they are, you know, prisoners after all. What appropriate behaviours are they expected to model to help TW assimilate more easily into Woman World I really can't imagine. Is it make up lessons?

CheeseMmmm · 03/01/2022 23:42

If Society made the decisions about prison we'd probably have the death penalty back...
And I'd think stuff like-
The spending would be cut to the bone.
Inmates would be in crowded cells with no access to anything that could be seen as respite from that- no books, papers, outdoors etc.
Food would be as basic as possible.
Medical provision hard to come by.
Hard work long hours nothing that could become s job after etc...

Maybe I'm cynical!!

Anyway...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/01/2022 23:35

read the article and there are two reasons trans women prisoners do not want to be imprisoned with other trans women. 1) they don’t like each other very much. They report not getting on with other trans women and finding them hard to live with. 2) they complain that in an all trans women unit they wouldn’t be able to “copy” real women to learn how to live as a woman. They want to live with real women to be socialised properly. They worry that living with trans women they wouldn’t pick up gender appropriate behaviours.

They really don’t seem to believe that trans women are women!

Well...

CheeseMmmm · 03/01/2022 23:21

@simmonslulu

Once someone is convicted they should have zero say in which type of prison they are housed as a matter of principle. The issue of their self-identification as a 'woman' should be irrelevant to the decision society makes based on the risk they may pose or whatever other criteria it may use.

That would include women though! Which theoretically could lead to disaster...

I also think that the situation in prisons esp male around violence, drug abuse, terrible conditions, not enough staff (privatisation mainly the reason I'm fairly sure from what read), self harm, sexual violence, bullying etc is appalling.

Prison is to rehabilitate, show justice is done (punishment), and to protect the public.

It's not and should not include being violently assaulted, sexually violated, having such a boring grim existence that being off your head as much as possible is welcome relief, the staff should be trained and in enough numbers to not feel vulnerable, etc etc.

ALL prisoners who are especially vulnerable to abuse should get measures to reduce/stop.

Why are men and women who are severely mentally ill in with the general population and often receiving no treatment?

FannyCann · 03/01/2022 22:46

Slight digression, but it looks as if the French are also going down the route of gender self ID in prisons.

https://twitter.com/frenchfem/status/1478024354726350848?s=21

Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

AlfonsoTheGoat · 03/01/2022 17:34

@Waitwhat23, that's a very good point.

simmonslulu · 03/01/2022 16:58

Once someone is convicted they should have zero say in which type of prison they are housed as a matter of principle. The issue of their self-identification as a 'woman' should be irrelevant to the decision society makes based on the risk they may pose or whatever other criteria it may use.

Waitwhat23 · 03/01/2022 16:52

@Artichokeleaves

The MOJ don't care, as evidenced by the recent judicial review. The judge in that case has basically admitted that it will take many individual challenges of the policy, by the women affected, to make any change. It doesn't seem to matter that this will constitute many instances of women being traumatised.

Makes it very clear doesn't it?

It's not the issue of women being harmed, distressed, assaulted, raped being the problem at all. That bit is fine. It'll only be when the kick off and push back is sufficiently large, noisy and inconvenient that the male dominated estate will reluctantly do something about it.

It is going to take legal precedents, large compensation pay outs and a lot of negative PR and public opinion to shift this. Hence the strength of action to convince women to just shut up and put up with it quietly without telling anyone, writing letters, supporting court cases and making a fuss.

And also to combat the arguments we see on here from posters who are all for transwomen in prisons - 'women shouldn't commit crimes then - they wouldn't get raped in prison in that case!' (so....State sanctioned, punative rape?) or 'women get raped by wardens anyway!' (I am horrified by that also but don't think increasing the amount of males in female prisons is going to address that).

It's as if women don't matter.

Artichokeleaves · 03/01/2022 16:11

Male people feeling sad and distressed and at risk, and wanting things however?

Huge rush around to sort all that out. Gosh. Major issue must be fixed asap.

Anyone still convinced at this point that biology doesn't matter has their head up their bum.

Artichokeleaves · 03/01/2022 16:09

The MOJ don't care, as evidenced by the recent judicial review. The judge in that case has basically admitted that it will take many individual challenges of the policy, by the women affected, to make any change. It doesn't seem to matter that this will constitute many instances of women being traumatised.

Makes it very clear doesn't it?

It's not the issue of women being harmed, distressed, assaulted, raped being the problem at all. That bit is fine. It'll only be when the kick off and push back is sufficiently large, noisy and inconvenient that the male dominated estate will reluctantly do something about it.

It is going to take legal precedents, large compensation pay outs and a lot of negative PR and public opinion to shift this. Hence the strength of action to convince women to just shut up and put up with it quietly without telling anyone, writing letters, supporting court cases and making a fuss.

Waitwhat23 · 03/01/2022 15:53

@manatsu

So what can we do about this, realistically? I would write to someone but my MP(‘s assistant?) just bins my letters. Protest outside a prison? The MOJ?

It’s so, so cruel and unfair. It’s a ridiculous policy and it is so obvious that male criminals would take advantage of it. Obviously genuine trans people need to be protected, but if a sadistic rapist or murderer suddenly claims he feels female after sentencing, he’s very obviously not trans and he will be fine to go to the men’s estate. Female prisoners on the other hand will likely not be fine having to be locked up with him. What about their safety and mental health?

The MOJ don't care, as evidenced by the recent judicial review. The judge in that case has basically admitted that it will take many individual challenges of the policy, by the women affected, to make any change. It doesn't seem to matter that this will constitute many instances of women being traumatised.

I am continuing to write to my representatives. I use www.writetothem.com to see who all your representatives are, not just your MP.

AlfonsoTheGoat · 03/01/2022 15:25

@Artichokeleaves

There is a MNetter who has DSD and has posted here sharing their anecdotal experience of being in a male prison, under a male identity, although being biologically female. They explained that their entire sentence was managed without other prisoners being aware, including guards ensuring that they were able to shower separately and managing need for sanpro, using strategies for vulnerable prisoners. Their opinion was that TW would be absolutely able to be kept safe within the male estate and current systems as they were.

If the issue was actually male violence, the Downview unit would have been acceptable. The sought resource is not a safe space. The sought resource is biologically female humans.

That's really interesting. I didn't see that thread, regrettably.

TW wanting to be in female prisons is about having power over women, a typically male trait.

manatsu · 03/01/2022 15:23

So what can we do about this, realistically? I would write to someone but my MP(‘s assistant?) just bins my letters. Protest outside a prison? The MOJ?

It’s so, so cruel and unfair. It’s a ridiculous policy and it is so obvious that male criminals would take advantage of it. Obviously genuine trans people need to be protected, but if a sadistic rapist or murderer suddenly claims he feels female after sentencing, he’s very obviously not trans and he will be fine to go to the men’s estate. Female prisoners on the other hand will likely not be fine having to be locked up with him. What about their safety and mental health?

Artichokeleaves · 03/01/2022 14:32

There is a MNetter who has DSD and has posted here sharing their anecdotal experience of being in a male prison, under a male identity, although being biologically female. They explained that their entire sentence was managed without other prisoners being aware, including guards ensuring that they were able to shower separately and managing need for sanpro, using strategies for vulnerable prisoners. Their opinion was that TW would be absolutely able to be kept safe within the male estate and current systems as they were.

If the issue was actually male violence, the Downview unit would have been acceptable. The sought resource is not a safe space. The sought resource is biologically female humans.

RedSquirrel111 · 03/01/2022 14:21

TW are in female prisons due to problems with male violence.
TM are in female prisons due to problems with male violence.

I'm going to get a fucking voice recording of 'male violence is not down to women to fix'

Artichokeleaves · 03/01/2022 14:15

Not to mention why are female prisoners seen as a education resource for males? They're not in prison to act as service animals for others.

This is like using the quiet girl in the classroom to sit next to a behaviourally challenged boy to help others manage his behaviour, regardless of the impact on her and her learning opportunities. Fuck that.

Artichokeleaves · 03/01/2022 14:13

@WeeBisom

I read the article and there are two reasons trans women prisoners do not want to be imprisoned with other trans women. 1) they don’t like each other very much. They report not getting on with other trans women and finding them hard to live with. 2) they complain that in an all trans women unit they wouldn’t be able to “copy” real women to learn how to live as a woman. They want to live with real women to be socialised properly. They worry that living with trans women they wouldn’t pick up gender appropriate behaviours.

They really don’t seem to believe that trans women are women!

And yet how often are women told on FWR that they pass unseen, no one would know, there's no difference or reason for women to see themselves as different to TW.

Isn't it funny how there's always one rule for biological males that works to their advantage, but those biological males set a different rule for biological females which also works to the male people's advantage?

With no more explanation as to why female people should sit still for this than 'be kind' (to male people).

Artichokeleaves · 03/01/2022 14:11

@ArabellaScott

Here it is:

Manual for Living As A Woman:

Shut up and Be Kind.

The End.

Where 'be kind' means in fact 'do what male people want'

Helleofabore · 03/01/2022 13:52

Weren’t we told last year sometime on one of these threads that male prisoners in female estates should also receive make up etc while they were there?

From a male poster, of course.

ArabellaScott · 03/01/2022 13:47

Here it is:

Manual for Living As A Woman:

Shut up and Be Kind.

The End.

ArabellaScott · 03/01/2022 13:45

gender appropriate behaviours

I'm sure we could probably supply some kind of manual.

Terfydactyl · 03/01/2022 12:36

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

So just diverting attention from the 6% who definitely are trans in the womens estate? No comment on those?

And I just want to add
No shit sherlock to this.