Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves

Apologies, yes I meant Blackbird. Wish there was an edit button.

Blackbird I know you think you are clear in your point, but I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you saying that all points of view are equal, if the holders earnestly believe them? Or whether they are the 'truth', or fact or fiction?

Yes I think they did, I had a thread on surrogacy a few days ago.

Once again, what I was talking about was posts explaining their views so as to have a conversation (that anyone is free to debate) rather than just saying "because I say so". I didnt say that the posts I screenshot contained solid facts, nor that I agree with them, simply that the people said more than just one sentence and they openly gave their reasons for their opinion. As far as I'm aware, something being "insightful" doesnt mean that it's the truth, I did not claim that they said the truth.

Huh? The OP has made no claims about JKR at all, in either of the two posts probably-she has put up in this thread.

Did you mean Blackbird1234?

Genuinely scratching my head with this thread and if it hadn't been for the surrogacy thread you started OP, I would have thought you were being deliberately obtuse. At best.

You haven't posted evidence of JKR's crimes, you haven't posted 'good points about why she is so reviled, you have said there are good points but failed to specific what they are and why. You haven't explained, precisely, what JKR has done to merit the monstering she has received.

Please post, in sentences, what these arguments are so that we might be able to, in sentences, refute them.

I've seen plenty of posts from people explaining their views, giving their reasons, giving their evidence, citing quotes, etc

You’ve said this again, but you haven’t posted any evidence of such, and the evidence you did post were screenshots of a Reddit forum of people lying, and certainly without quotes.

You didn’t originally say they were insightful to them you said they were insightful. Of course people who post anything anywhere are going to think their posts are insightful to them .

You also said you’ve seen “plenty” of abuse from GC people and supporters of JKR that is equal to those death and rape threats. You haven’t.

PS: I know many trans people, and they do not utter death threats. It may be that I am somewhat selective, and don't have anything to do with people who utter death threats, man, women or multi-sexual Martian...

You know, it occurs to me that arguing with people who have an idealogical belief in something is as futile as arguing with anyone who has been brainwashed by a religion or cult, as it might be the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification or QAnon, or with an alcoholic about alcohol. You won't convince them by arguing; they have no way of seeing any argument which doesn't agree with their conviction.

For instance, in order to counter "Trans people utter death threats", finding one trans person who (probably, mostly) doesn't utter deaths threats really isn't any argument whatever, but apparently it is seen as such by those who really believe that women are evil and trans people are only and always brave, beautiful and members of the most oppressed, marginalised and threatened group of people in the world.

Actually, it all started off as it being said that no one who is against JKR ever says more than "because I say so" when they're asked about their reasons for their thoughts, and I said that this wasnt true, that I've seen plenty of posts from people explaining their views, giving their reasons, giving their evidence, citing quotes, etc. I also said that it's unlikely that even when presented with all of these things, people supporting JKR would be more than likely to deem the entire thing invalid because they find it all to be lies, which is exactly what is happening here. Did I say that they have irrefutable proof that JKR is 100% a transphobe that would blow all supporters out of the water? No. Not once. What is evidence to you that JKR is not transphobic, is perhaps not to someone else who has an entirely different view and life experience, who has seen the situation in a way different to how you have done. It all started because I have seen people post long and insightful to them posts about their opinions and have not just said "because I say so". What is insightful to you, is not necessarily to others. Has she tweeted a blatantly and horrifically transphobic tweet? No. Has she said things that SOME consider to be transphobic and SOME dont? Yes. Have both sides given their arguments as to why they believe what they believe? Yes. That was my point.

I think what you mean is there are comments from people who managed to express their opinion and hatred of her without calling her a fucking bitch, and this qualifies as insightful.

It doesn’t.

These people themselves may also think they’re offering insight, but when the rest of us know they’re lying, it doesn’t really hold up.

Your point is that none of JKR’s supporters would be willing to consider an opinion offered if it was insightful, because we are all just as blinkered. I would really like the opportunity to prove you’re wrong, but I still haven’t seen an insightful post to appraise.

Just one without lies even?

Arabella - I didnt come on here claiming that JKR is transphobic, because I dont think that she is. I came on here to make a different point that, despite me repeating it many times, people are ignoring. I really dont fancy repeating myself for the goodness knows how many time, it's all in the posts already on the thread.

Blackbird1234
Also, they're adults.

Really? Shame they don't seem aware of the fact.

(For your information, a six-foot-four man in his forties can be a very little, insignificant person; it's not to do with mere physical size or age, more to do with meagreness of spirit.)

they are indeed backing their claims with evidence that they believe

I'm sure they do believe. But 'opinion' does not equal 'evidence'.

Also: 'what is a woman'?

I can answer that with ease. Trans rights activists? Not seen an answer yet.

I've said what my point was many times yet the majority are still missing it, so I don't see any reason to continue. Never mind.

My point was and remains that people on both sides give good arguments, quotes, evidence, articles etc that back up their own views

Yeah, they don’t, though, and neither do you. As has been pointed out, that Reddit “evidence” is full of lies and misrepresentation.

Am tired of this now. PP was correct to say “shit or get off the pot” about eight hours ago. Sound advice!

So the evidence that people can insightfully disagree with JKR is screenshots of people lying on Reddit? Okay…

And the evidence “both sides” send abusive threats? I found those 3 screenshots of brand new abuse while barely lifting a finger, so I would have thought finding similar would have been just as easy. Guess not .

So as I said earlier, you wont necessarily agree with what the "other side" is saying and, therefore, deem their argument to have no merit. That is fully your inventive and I'm sure the "other side" do it to the "jkr side" as well. My point was and remains that people on both sides give good arguments, quotes, evidence, articles etc that back up their own views, which is what people on here (and other forums) ask for and say they never get. They do get them, you (general) just dont believe there is any merit as you disagree, but the arguments explaining their full reasons why are there, they are not all stomping their feet saying "because I say so", they are indeed backing their claims with evidence that they believe, much as the JKR side also do.

To be fair to Blackbird someone on the GC 'side' did tweet a post of a ribbon, and just recently someone else retreated a picture that was doctored to say T* are right about everything. Then there was the phrase 'Women won't wheest' that was chalked near Holyrood. Nasty stuff...

Oh dear, still twittering on with nothing to say...

Where that stance goes wrong, blackbird, is that it treats all opinions as having the same merit. They do not. Facts and opinions really do exist on a spectrum (unlike sex )

Imagine for a minute the vast difference between saying “strawberry ice cream is better than chocolate” and saying “1+1 =2”. The first is clearly an opinion- I think it’s true, you don’t, and there is no objective test that could back either of us up.

The second is a fact (esoteric advanced mathematics aside). It can be clearly evidenced, factually demonstrated, stands true no matter what.

We’re looking for numbers, and you’ve brought strawberry ice cream.

You’ve also confused the requirement to understand people “having an opinion” with a requirement to have other people take that opinion seriously. No such obligation exists, and given the differing standards of evidence I’ve illustrated above, some opinions clearly deserve more weight.

Lastly, a mistake people often make is that, having had their unevidenced opinion dismissed, they equate having lost the argument with being prevented from arguing at all- two very different things.

I don’t mean to pick on you, but you have stumbled into a very fractious debate.

Yes, ok, but I think PPs are referring to people who come onto MN feminism threads and tell us off, then have no facts to back up their claims of transphobia.

Why would we chase them around social media trying to engage with them?

And if you would engage with some of the people on that Reddit thread (for example), they would provide you with that as some are doing in the screenshots. The point stands that to them the sources they are citing etc reflect real proof of JKR being transphobic in their opinion and they're debating it in a (mostly) calm and respectful manner and not just simply saying "because I say so". My point was never whether you agree with what they're saying/citing, simply that people are doing it and not just stamping their feet and yelling that they're right you're wrong because they say so.

Also, I went onto reddit because I find it a good place to get all opinions. I typed in "JK Rowling" in the search bar and got a lot of results from people who stand with her, against her, in the middle, in the middle but kind of with her/against her in some aspects etc. By far the most threads on that search page were in favour of JKR rather than against.

Just going back to the 'Die abt it freak' it seems that the poster deleted their account after a flurry of mean anti trans tweets and no more.

So we can't actually look and see who this might be.

Fair play though, they were keen to show how 'gender critical' they were for all the screenshots.

respectful debate can only be engaged in when people tell the truth.

Aye.

Because someone has typed an opinion out into a tweet doesn't lend their words any gravitas or veracity.

We are looking for facts, sources, checkable, verifiable, reputable data!

I agree that 'both sides can have opinions and speak words'.