Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves

Blackbird, is there any way you can post some evidence by people that actually exist?

WomanistScot is not a twitter handle, and the original post has Mhairi Black imprinted on the top of the picture. What was that about?

Do you genuinely think a gender critical person wrote violent rape fantasies like that? Also, sent to a woman, not to a trans person.

Btw that email posted above is horrific so I fully expect it to be deleted by MN!

Notbadconsidering - That particular quote of mine didnt say anything specifically about JKR but here is a voice of someone who does not stand with trans rights activists and their words lead me to believe that they're a loud voice who dont have the movements best interests at heart. This email was sent to someone on twitter who is a trans rights activist TW rape is mentioned and described

And thanks for the twitter link, will have a read 😊

And addressing what everyone finds important doesnt mean curtailing to things that impede the progress - I guess it simply means actually listening to what the other side have to say, despite disagreeing with it. Not creating change that shouldn't be there, just listening.

Arabella - No I dont think that people need to be nicer and step on eggshells. I do think that the conversation can be respectful (not the same as nice) as mostly when people feel disrespected they go on the defensive, and that impedes progress. Getting through the noise to get to the truth of the matter is very important, but it would lose value if once you're through the noise, the people you want to listen to you have stopped listening. If the conversation remains respectful and addresses what everyone finds important, then there will probably be a lot more listeners from the other side at the end of it.

I do also believe that there are some very loud voices on both sides who dont have the movements best interests at heart

This is another assertion without evidence. This is a similar implication that there are people on JKR’s side who are just as abusive as those who abuse here. Who are the people who are loud voices on the side of protecting women’s sex based rights who don’t actually have that at heart?

Well, I do have some sympathy for that point of view, Blackbird.

You may find this thread interesting. I don't agree with all of it, fwiw, at all, but it's concerning vaccine acceptance etc:

twitter.com/EBHarrington/status/1418281619312586755?s=20

Okay, Blackbird. So it seems your point is mainly about tone? You think we should all be nicer in order to discuss things and arrive at compromise? Is that about right?

Maybe. Or maybe this is part of the problem. Genderism is one small part of this issue. This isn't about warring movements or picking a tribe or identifying with a feeling or a thought. It's about rigorous critical thinking and getting through the noise to the truth of the matter.

Otherwise we end up in a squishy place where people say things like 'sex is complicated' because they're afraid to hurt people's feelings and experts are mean if they 'fact shame' and it all goes rapidly downhill from there.

I'm not quite sure but I do know how much time has been expended already on pandering to people's emotes and how far it's got us. Teenage girls having their breasts removed. Women raped in prison. People rioting in the streets to protect a flasher who exposed himself in a spa to children.

I guess a situation I could compare it to that includes changes in laws, mandates, rights etc would be Corona virus antivaxxers. For so long an anti vaxxer was immediately shut down and deemed an idiot, crazy, not someone worth speaking to, by society. Then all of a sudden we need as many people on board with vaccination as possible in order to hopefully get over the pandemic somewhat and I saw so many conversations with antivaxxers that were focused on their feelings, why they believe what they do whilst gently providing facts. It became a pleasant conversation (mostly) where their fears were addressed and not just immediately refuted because they werent factual, they were able to work through their feelings, understand why they thought certain things and thus in the end, accept that a vaccination was the best course of action. I cant speak for everyone but I saw it happen with people in my own life and the only thing that seemed to change about these conversations was understanding from both sides, not just "this is the fact so you're wrong and insane". So I guess that's more what I mean, in order to solve something you need to understand the other side and you have to have feelings in the conversation in order to do that. I think thats a good analogy but if it's not, I'm happy to be told why.

Because a solution is clearly needed, whatever that may be, and I believe you can only reach that by actually getting through the conversation rather than stopping it in its tracks. Feelings are clearly involved, so it seems counterproductive to ignore them and constantly state "this is fact this is where it ends" as then a solution wont be found. I think you can hold the facts as facts whilst still continuing the conversation and listening to both sides feelings on the matter. To me, that's the only way to actually make progress.

it stops the conversation in its tracks and doesn't allow it to progress beyond that
Your point being ...?
If someone said, "the earth is flat" but science proved otherwise, why would we need "progress" beyond that. I wouldn't ban flat-earthers but I wouldn't base government policy on them!

Milesjuppismybitch - Yes I believe that too and it definitely makes for murky waters between the two sides and I completely understand that makes it difficult to navigate. I do think that feelings have a place in debate as in my opinion, you need to understand the other side in order to progress. I dont deny biological fact but it seems that it stops the conversation in its tracks and doesnt allow it to progress beyond that, which I think is what is needed for real progress towards coming to some sort of solution. I do also believe that there are some very loud voices on both sides who dont have the movements best interests at heart, who also make the entire conversation very difficult and frustrating for those who do want to progress beyond arguments, but I suppose that applies to almost every other subject in the world!

I think that part of the problem here may be that most of the tra side of the 'debate' is based on feelings.

I don't doubt that there is plenty of sincerity on gender ideology side, but the problem is that those feelings have been used as a reason to change actual government policy, to the detriment of women.

This is why GC's focus on fact.

You said you would post things you found insightful. Not things that the anonymous posters in those screenshots think are insightful. What do you find insightful about their arguments? It’s not we assumed something other than what you were saying it’s because we read what you were saying.

And you keep ignoring the fact you said you would post evidence of equal abuse. You’re conveniently ignoring the reminders of that.

Notbadconsidering - And as my point was that I have seen people post much more than just "because", I stand by what I posted. Insightful doesn't mean truthful. It doesnt mean 100% fact. The posts I added had peoples reasons for thinking what they do, which is what you yourself said you had never seen anywhere on the internet. You all assumed something other than what I was saying, which is also apparent in the fact its still being assumed by posters that I think JKR is transphobic.
My aim was never to hop on here and post a bunch of evidence that you could all refute, it was to have a discussion and hopefully learn something (like I did in my surrogacy thread which proved amazing for me) but everyone pretty much pounced on the JKR "proof" just waiting around to prove me wrong when I don't even hold the same opinions as the screenshots I posted. A few people even said "post the screenshots so that we can refute everything sentence by sentence" and that's not what I'm here for. I feel a good discussion could've been had, but everything stopped at "Show us evidence" and didn't move beyond it, so I find that a pity and ultimately learnt very very little.

I will indeed take all the time I need to find and post what I have seen written against JKR that I deemed insightful, which is what I said in the beginning

Part of a healthy debate is being able to say you got something wrong. The above quote is what you said. You haven’t backed this up. You also said you’d post evidence of JKR’s supporters being just as abusive as those who abuse her. You haven’t backed that up either. I found 3 brand new abusive tweets towards her posted within just one random hour. That’s the level of abuse she suffers, one threat of violence every 20 minutes at least and those were just the ones in English I could understand.

You’re not being “attacked” for debating, you kept asserting something, kept asserting you’d post proof of that something, and kept getting replies wanting you to do so and asking why you haven’t. Backing up assertions with evidence is a requirement here so yes, other places that might go happily without that may suit more.

Like this:
JKR said this 'x, y and z' and some people find 'a, b and c' when they read this sentence because [something].

Because all I read yesterday is that JRK said X and because Maya said Y [which she didn't actually say or do] then it means Z. Which is a false premise and if it made such an impact on you to come and tell us all about it, you must remember some of the gist of their arguments?

My entire point ended with saying that people do post more than "because". Not that they're correct. Not that they post the truth. But that they do fight their corner and dont just use a one word cop out.

Honestly I don't think I will stick around. I don't expect anyone to "be kind" to me in the slightest but really only one or two posts directed towards me have not been filled with hostility. I'd prefer to be in an environment where I can feel free to debate and learn without feeling somewhat attacked, where I can leave the discussion happy that I've learnt something and enjoyed doing it. If Mumsnet is filled with people who have been here for many years and who get frustrated at discussions like this, then I dont think it's the right place for me, unfortunately. And for the hundredth time, I don't find JKR transphobic.

Regardless, thank you to everyone who took the time to respond to me. If anyone has any recommendations of forums that discuss similar issues, please do pop them below if you can. Thanks everyone!

I think the point is NOT that you need to go away and find insightful posts that you’ve read on X amount of platforms showing why you think JKR is transphobic/why the actors are right to stick up for their views etc.

The point is - please take the time to find ACTUAL proof, direct from JKR’s words, that she is transphobic. Because, if you go back to her “essay”, which triggered this daftness, you won’t find anything there. Nor will you find anything since.

And it’s daft to imply that people think the HP stars should give back their earnings. However, they should think very carefully about continuing to take part in projects where they profit from their involvement AFTER they so publicly denounced her. There’s a big difference there.

Just to be clear, from my POV, standing up for the rights of women is NOT transphobic. It is perfectly possible to vehemently do so, while also recognising that additional rights need to be introduced for the trans community - but these should be separate to sex-based rights.

Also Blackbird, I know you are new here, but there have been many arguments proposed on this board to defend Self ID, and over the very many years I have been here, not a single argument in favour of Self ID has stood up to proper debate and scrutiny.

But there are a lot of lurkers on these boards, which is why the women here will patiently post, over and over, to the many who ask genuine questions, and to robustly refute the many who come to accuse, deride, mock or insult.

Most of the regular posters came across this board wondering WTF this issues was all about, wondering what all the fuss was about, why people weren't being 'kind'. We stuck around, read, asked questions and in the end, facts, logic and fairness won. Do stick around. :)

And the original point from Blackbird was that these actors should be okay to say they disagree without qualifying their statements, because no one should be obliged to do so and others have done so well anyway so Radcliffe et al can just go along with that. When the latter is false, it makes the former false also.

Blackbird
I agree people can believe they are right and earnestly defend their opinion as fact. Even running away very fast from Godwin comparisons, my mother does this fantastically well.

But so what?

Are we supposed to say, 'ah ok then, do feel free to self identify and come in and watch my 12 year old daughter getting changed'? Or acquiesce to their gazillions of demands, and make sure we stay alert for the new set of demands on women, on our rights?

Is that the end of your point or is there a next step?

I have seen people give a full explanation of their reasons (not saying that they are correct) and somehow we ended up here.

You said you had seen insightful comments. Even the comments you screenshot don’t give reasons or give reasons based on lies. Nothing insightful.

You also said you had seen equal levels of abuse. Still waiting for evidence of that.

Miladyberseko - I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. This topic began because the poster NotBadConsidering said that they had never seen anyone anywhere on the internet quote JKRs words and say why they're transphobic, that they have only ever seen an "explanation" of "because". I have seen people give a full explanation of their reasons (not saying that they are correct) and somehow we ended up here. I believe all opinions are valid in the holders mind, but not that they're all equal and truthful - they perhaps are to that person only. A person can wholeheartedly believe in their own opinion, of course, but I dont think that makes it truthful to everyone else, no.