Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

Maybe they don't support it because of the wankers who say things like "women who don't support feminism are just doing it to please men."

Because you either have to be utterly lacking in self-knowledge or a patronizing wanker to say that to a whole group of women.

It is completely irrelevant.

Campaign for fair wages for all , fine, but making an issue out of cleaning offices that , shock horror, women work in is ridiculous.

It certainly isnt irrelevant - many of the women who may have cause to join the feminist movement but at the moment dont (and as has been pointed out, are sometimes looked down on by professional women like Ruth Serwotka), are cleaning the offices of those very same women, who perhaps should understand that any common cause of feminism should include them.

Also, who cleans the offices of all those professional women and how much are they getting paid!

*Pats arrow" - I agree about KellyJ, and I certainly dont think feminism should be about women academics looking down on women who happen not to have had a university education. I remember for example, the tremendous strength and solidarity of some of the miners wives that we met when we were supporting the strike - they were feminists if anyone is. I think there can be a "nasty" side to the feminist movement but worry that this can be attributed to "when women get together they can be so bitchy". Ive experienced that too. No movement is perfect I guess. Some of the male anarchists Ive encountered, have been a right pain in the arse!

That's why Kellie Jay pisses them off more than she pisses off James Max. Because she just speaks the truth and doesn't care what feminists think. In my eyes Kellie Jay is a true feminist even though she doesn't accept the term. She fights for women, all women and she gets shit done

I agree. KJ is loud, bolshy, isn't an Academic, talks clearly in straight language, is funny, has the ability to charm an audience, fights for all kinds of women without prejudice and adores her husband and children and often puts them first.

They dislike her intensely. There's a nasty side to the Feminist movement - you have to look and behave a certain way and your face is supposed to fit. They can deny this all they want but it's true.

I like Julie, I admire her work, but we've all seen the 'Head Girl' mentality.

That's why Kellie Jay pisses them off more than she pisses off James Max. Because she just speaks the truth and doesn't care what feminists think. In my eyes Kellie Jay is a true feminist even though she doesn't accept the term. She fights for women, all women and she gets shit done.

For those that have chosen to marry men and stay at home to look after the children, they may believe that feminists look down on them. This is usually a defence mechanism because I’ve never heard a genuine feminist speak about women in that way

I think JB might have a selective memory.

www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2004/feb/07/weekend7.weekend

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/05/niall-ferguson-wrong-child-free-care-less?INTCMP=SRCH

The feminist fix for anti-feminist women is to ask, repeatedly and unequivocally, why they are working against their own interests. There is only ever one answer, and that is to avoid offending or upsetting men.

I think this is demeaning to the women she's talking about, and not even necessarily true. What I see as the key issue for many women is that they see feminism as a rebel movement, opposed to the society we live in. Feminists certainly agree that society puts women in a vulnerable position, but there are two different responses to that--feminism names the problems and fights against them, but then one could believe that it leaves feminists in an even worse state, because they're women to start with, and because they're giving up the protection that they ought to get by being good female citizens. Men might enjoy the idea of being social dissidents, but I think it's very unsettling to a lot of women.

Yes I'm conscious that it may be unreasonable to bring up a discussion that JB didn't even take part in (as far as I know). But that line about never having heard a 'genuine feminist' (whatever that means) speak like that just struck me as so disingenuous that it soured the rest of the piece for me.

I think she's missed an opportunity to be a little more reflective, and I would have liked to see her acknowledge that feminism's relationship with motherhood and mothers has been fraught at times. I'd be interested to read that post Arabella.

The feminist fix for anti-feminist women is to ask, repeatedly and unequivocally, why they are working against their own interests. There is only ever one answer, and that is to avoid offending or upsetting men.

I agree partly with this. I remember when feminists were denounced as the hairy armpit, dungaree clad, scary lesbians, so "ladies", if you want to be attractive to men, dont side with these harpies. So fighting for equal pay, decent nurserey care, a right to abortion, and all the other practical things, could so easily get lost in this obfuscation. I think the vast majority of women CAN be feminist in the proper sense but I know some will choose not to be because they see it as a negative label.

Thanks for the link. I've read it a couple of times and I'm sure there are some great points but in the light of Ruth Serwotka, Sarah Ditum and 'Zombiegate', I'm really struggling to get past this:

For those that have chosen to marry men and stay at home to look after the children, they may believe that feminists look down on them. This is usually a defence mechanism because I’ve never heard a genuine feminist speak about women in that way.

While I didn't see JB taking part in that exchange, I'm a bit that she didn't know about it. And I think her choice of wording re 'defence mechanism' might also reveal a bit more than she intended.

Mnnn.

There are a lot of self declared 'feminists' who attack Posie/Kellie Jay, even though she robustly stands up for women, much more so than the women who say we must accept TWAW, imo. She has been attacked so much that she doesn't even call herself feminist anymore. Should be be persuaded back?

Then there are those feminists who call some women 'domesticated zombies'. Which of these women are in 'the fold' and which are out, who should be welcomed, who should be excluded.
And who gets to decide? Is it Julie?