Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

Oh yes and sod JB. And let's talk about something she is v strong on, and how she's wrong even on that!

'most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.'

Really?

Nothing to do with the inherent obvious dangers that being in v vulnerable situations with men they don't know, men who have paid them for various sex acts..

Men who, despite the popular idea that it's women who are the most judgemental about women who earn money that way..

Are extreme in their judgements around women, girls, sex, in the same way they globally historically have consistently been.

And with a very special judgement reserved for women that are paid to comply with the sexual desires of men.

It really isn't moreinherentlyunsafe than many other jobs - and most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.

Though those who are opposed to sex work should probably start thinking about the fact that thebestway to enable people who would rather stop doing sex work to stop doing it is to introduce universal basic income. People who sell sex and hate doing so, only continue to do so because they need money and resources.

1. I entirely agree that introducing universal income or at least introducing easy to claim unemployment and disability benefits (that are sufficient to live on) would provide an alternative for those women in survival prostitution.

However it will not solve the issue of the women who are trafficked to meet the demands of sex-buying men.

2. Catch yourself on.

Exactly how much personal protective equipment are nurses expected to use to provide personal care when handling bodily fluids?

Sex certainly involves exposure to bodily fluids, does it not? Meanwhile, due to us being in a pandemic of an airborne virus, I have to wear a mask when I enter a supermarket in case I pass within six feet of a fellow shopper.

Again, sex involves being considerably closer than six feet to someone.

Plus issues which should be seen as societal eg child poverty.

Are dumped into women's issues, women need to cover those things off as well as all the other shit!

FFS.

Anyway. JB eh?

Great on some things.

Really not so much on others.

JB is a person not the arbiter of all feminism.

No point looking at what she thinks and saying OHO FEMINISTS THINK THAT!

Well yes, puritanical or protestant work ethic runs deep in England at least, where I live and society I know about.

Hard work, diligence, frugality etc.

It's v interesting.

Look on MN loads of threads espousing these views that came from religion, all over the place.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

House prices escalating so much faster than wages?

Families needing two Incomes - when definitely all women could SAH with children no financial issues full stop, in unspecified point in past? Naturally all were married, had man who was reliable, owned home...?

Women and low pay, often insecure, unvalued jobs?

Etc etc.

Plenty of media, people etc. Definitely blame more or less EVERYTHING on women, especially mothers. And at the root is BLOODY FEMINISTS encouraging women to try and be more like men! Which is against their natures, ridiculous, makes everything worse for everyone. And destructive to society.

Well we're responsible for nearly everything.
Hurricanes are because of homosexual people. At least it's only women who are lesbians guilty on that one.

[quote SantaClawsServiette]@FlyingOink - thank you for your example. I think that's a good illustration, but I am so bad with arithmetic that I avoid it myself.

AWreath21 - I am not saying that no WC women worked and I don't think anyone else did either. Though I would say that not working has become less plausible for those women. But that doesn't really mean that it isn't a problem, because it means that the gap between the already maximized income of her family, and the now two-income professional family, has increased. And that has consequences in the big picture.

There is also the question of whether employment in itself is as rewarding for everyone. It's one thing to have the freedom to seek fulfillment in a career, but for a lot of people in a job that is not what gives their life meaning and fulfillment. For those women it might have been more fulfilling to be in a position to leave paid work and take care of their family or woek in the community in other ways.[/quote]
Employment is profoundly unrewarding for vast numbers of people, in every sense. Ever read Bullshit Jobs? (If not: it basically looks at various types of jobs which are completely pointless and make the people who do them miserable; the author distinguishes clearly between jobs which are distasteful or dangerous but necessary and jobs which appear to serve no purpose other than to keep the plebs obedient and occupied.)
Some types of job really could be dispensed with; others, which are not particularly 'fulfilling' but which are necessary, should be paid more to encourage people to do them. One of the biggest problems we have regarding 'work' is that the ruling classes really, really hate the idea of the lower orders having leisure time...

And this is brought up frequently,

While this JB piece is interesting enough to devote s thread to.

'So the questions are: 1) Which woman here has feminism been a win for? And 2) Given that when we look at class, it's advantaged the MC family, and disadvantaged the WC family, can we say that this has been a movement about class advantage?

Equal pay act

More awareness around DV, society no longer things AOK, stronger laws... Laws not working that's not because of feminists though it's govt police etc.

Increasing awareness sex offences. Rape, voyeurism, flashing, grooming, etc. Stronger laws. Again not working well, again not feminists fault, govt depts etc.

Raising awareness around fact laws don't work, going on about it so in press, parliament etc. Keeping in public eye, pushing, not just saying oh well and no one aware massive problems.

Refuges, rape crisis orgs

Well I mean there's loads.

What has activism around women's issues and rights achieved?

Nothing except help a tiny proportion of career women and made everything worse for all other women???

You're barking up the wrong tree here.

And it's derailing the thread.

Try looking into issues with CAPITALISM and PATRIARCHY, a toxic mix. Your concern about wc women, employment etc. That's where you need to be focusing.

To ignore those and say it's the fault of anyone advocating for better deal for women and girls is, frankly, to miss pretty much everything about the problems with structures etc in our society.

Not quite caught up! We're talking activism here- women's rights, women in general demanding change etc.

Loads wanted better opportunities work/career wise for girls women. Not just feminists.
Women across society who were FFS discrimination/ hostility etc limiting us.
Same as other groups agitate for as well.
Gay men lesbians, disability, race, class, etc. All press for less discrimination work, equality of opportunity, talent not who you are smoothing progression/ introducing barriers.

PLUS

Women with families have always worked. This SAH with children financially secure idea is miles off full picture.

Before what the 60s. Women couldn't control fertility. Large families. My gran was one of 11. Her DH died when youngest was 1. No benefits etc. She did everything she could to get money to keep fed etc.

Over last couple hundred years or so we worked in factories, down mines, in shops, farming, stalls at markets, as seamstresses, servants/cooks/nannies for wealthy FAMILIES (not just wealthy women), teaching, etc and so on.

And children couldn't limit how many.

Work? Oh yes. Some types of women/jobs were barred from work after marriage, then it was once pregnant.

My great aunt was a doctor. Born early 1900s. When pregnant with first, game over. Did she take that lying down? No she fucking was livid. Fought.

Oh and just as an aside. During training in hosp. They put her on the VD ward for ages, not standard training rotation etc. Because obv would be peering at, handling dicks all day. Test her mettle, see if could get rid, also haha see how she likes that.

She was privileged- able to go uni when few women allowed, good job. She had to face shit to get through, not fold. Then told nope pregnant career over just because.

When was it that women could SAH on one income and family financially sound?

One tranche of women, one brief handful of years?

Or is this a rose coloured fantasy of the past?

Bollocks.
Choice? How would you like sucking a manky cock? Do you really think all the punters wash them before, or do you think some might enjoy knowing that their cock is manky?

It's important to try and look at these kinds of possibilities and see clearly what has happened. It's also important to see where advantaged may have been hijacked. Was the kind of feminism that put so much emphasis on women in the workforce adopted so widely because it gave the most benefit to women? Or because it gave the most benefit to women with political power? Or because it was best for industry and the GDP?

Powerful people will use whatever social changes they can to their own advantage and it helps no one to be naive about that.

@FlyingOink - thank you for your example. I think that's a good illustration, but I am so bad with arithmetic that I avoid it myself.

AWreath21 - I am not saying that no WC women worked and I don't think anyone else did either. Though I would say that not working has become less plausible for those women. But that doesn't really mean that it isn't a problem, because it means that the gap between the already maximized income of her family, and the now two-income professional family, has increased. And that has consequences in the big picture.

There is also the question of whether employment in itself is as rewarding for everyone. It's one thing to have the freedom to seek fulfillment in a career, but for a lot of people in a job that is not what gives their life meaning and fulfillment. For those women it might have been more fulfilling to be in a position to leave paid work and take care of their family or woek in the community in other ways.

I’m not interested in feminism for its own sake, also I’m not interested being equal to men nor competing with them, I’m quite content being better than most of them
I’ve always made my own life, I’ve had the same chances as anyone else, a full 40yr career, reared 4 sons, most years my wages were more than my husband and I’m nothing special. The thing is I see so many who make the wrong decisions, the wrong men, an unrealistic career, making a mess of life and expecting someone else to pick up the pieces.
If women are going to make any progress they need to start by making the right decisions

Having read JB's article now I'm not sure what so many people here are getting so worked up about. Most of the stuff she says is sensible. I see nothing I strongly disagree with. The "be kind" mantra does seem to expect women to do most of the self sacrificing putting others first stuff and some women do love trying to save damaged and dangerous men rather than looking for well balanced men who are their equals and will be just as kind and considerate to them

I don't think people are saying it's terrible. It is just that there are downsides. Whether the downsides are acceptable or not is another question.

No practical suggestions offered but plenty of finger pointing and shaming and apparently it's not remotely unfair that men can have highly paid professional careers. I suppose they need them of course to be able to keep a wife at home to do womanly "domestic tasks"

The article itself was terrible but I've seen worse from Bindel, who appears to have forgotten she herself has been spectacularly nasty about mothers.

Anyway. Yes, we need feminism that is practical, that offers all women benefits, real concrete benefits, not just theoretical ones or ego-based ones.
Yes this, and also good points from SantaClaws
*
So the questions are: 1) Which woman here has feminism been a win for? And 2) Given that when we look at class, it's advantaged the MC family, and disadvantaged the WC family, can we say that this has been a movement about class advantage?*

Feminism is about (and for) all of us.

But also most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.
NOPE most of what makes it unsafe is the rapey, murederey, abusive men that benefit from it (either as pimps or punters)

I would argue that sex work IS inherently degrading and exploitative actually for lots and lots of reasons. Which is not to say that ALL women engaged in sex word consider themselves to be degraded/exploitative (before you set up that straw man)
But anyway, the fact you consider sex work and cleaning to be the same says more about you than anything else...

Although it does raise an important point about women working outside the home. In the 18th Century when women were barred from almost all well paid employment the proportion working in the sex industry was huge. Almost always this was about survival not choice. There's a lot more to it than that. But the times before first wave feminism were not halcyon days of harmony between the sexes and safe domesticity.

Though those who are opposed to sex work should probably start thinking about the fact that the best way to enable people who would rather stop doing sex work to stop doing it is to introduce universal basic income. People who sell sex and hate doing so, only continue to do so because they need money and resources.

Same as the way to stop the dangerous small-boat channel crossings by refugees and migrants would be to provide safe, legal routes from one country to another.

Bollocks!! “Sex work” is inherently unsafe & wouldn’t pass the most basic health & safety laws in the UK

The idea that women entering professional work caused housing costs to rise to the point that most families now need two incomes is sort of plausible, but doesn't really stand up. A bigger reason for high housing costs is profiteering around property and the increasing acceptability of buying houses, etc to make a profit rather than have somewhere to live (and, of course, wage stagnation).
Working class women have always worked, even in the days when men were routinely paid more (the 'family' wage, which was very nice indeed for men who didn't have or didn't want children).
People's thinking about 'work' is very messed up, as well, whether that's the right-wing obsession with 'idleness' among the poor and how they must be made to occupy themselves and, most of all, learn obedience by being employed, or those like the silly kid I had an exchange of views with elsewhere on social media - 'If I had universal basic income I would spend my time volunteering and helping other people'... I asked what made this different from work?
Thing is, there are a lot of necessary tasks that can't be automated away. We might be able to synthesise food and have it produced by robots, but someone still has to get it onto plates. The very young, the old and the sick still need to be looked after. There's still cleaning, production and maintenance work to be done in private homes as well as public and business premises.
What needs to be looked at is how those tasks get allocated. Some people seem to think that, for instance, health care workers (with specific skills and qualifications) should also clean their workplaces - this doesn't seem to be the best use of their working time.

I will add that there are also lots of women who choose jobs like cleaning because:

• It meets with their family commitments/other demands on their time
• It is better paid than other jobs they could get in line with their qualifications/age/local market
• It is a genuine way to improve their economic position
• It allows them to mantain financial independance
• They like it

I agree a conversation should be had about exploitation, about the undervaluing of "women's work" and about modern expectations that both parents work. But I wouldn't assume that cleaning is any worse inherently than being a gardener, car mechanic or plumber or any other "domestic" jobs that are frequently outsourced.

I do see @SantaClawsServiette ' s point. However - the existence of female doctors is actually a benefit to other women (of any class or age) who want to see a female doctor. For some women it could be the difference between going to the GP or not going. In the case of surgeons it can actually be the difference between life and death (at least based on recent US research.
I also have to admit... I have worked as a cleaner before and enjoyed it - even though I hate cleaning when its my own house. I earned good money compared to other jobs I could have worked at the time. So the idea that cleaning is always a lesser job imposed on working class women somehow isn't always the case. It should absolutely be appreciated and paid for fairly - but it isn't always inherently an explotative/degrading job.