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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

140 replies

ArabellaScott · 31/12/2021 12:56

thecritic.co.uk/self-harm-in-sheeps-clothing/

'Women that hate feminism are practicing a form of self-harm, disguised as short-term protection. The job of feminists is to welcome those women into the fold.'

OP posts:
Wreath21 · 05/01/2022 00:01

@CheeseMmmm

Ooh big assumption! Out of interest, given this is anon site. What makes you sure that that poster doesn't know many of any women (and men?) who are paid for sex, and/or hasn't done it herself?

I mean I have no idea either way.

But what makes you so sure?

Because she said the only people she knows who consider sex work to be work are middle class liberals.
CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 22:37

Out of interest do the sex workers you know, say that their job is essentially the same as cleaning?

If it is I've been doing both sex and cleaning wrong for decades!

CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 22:36

'sex work activists'-

Do you mean groups working directly with the women and girls at the sharp end,

Or the women, and LOADS of men, who march and post all over SM etc,

Who use phrases and arguments eg

Sex work is work
No different to any other job
In Capitalist etc society, all work is exploitation
Those who think should be illegal to pay another person for sexual contact, do so because they hate the women (men) who are paid, they fear the temptation to their husbands, they are prudes, likely 'vanilla' and against sex in general and uptight... Etc.

Having reread your earlier post I think I can safely say that's your general opinion.

I'm assuming you work on the ground as well? I mean directly with women girls who need help? Actually probably wrong to assume that.

CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 22:27

Ooh big assumption! Out of interest, given this is anon site. What makes you sure that that poster doesn't know many of any women (and men?) who are paid for sex, and/or hasn't done it herself?

I mean I have no idea either way.

But what makes you so sure?

Wreath21 · 04/01/2022 22:18

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Wreath21, working as a cleaner is nothing like prostitution. The only people I've ever heard expressing that view are middle-class liberals who have never come within a mile of having to do either themselves.
That may have something to do with the fact that you don't know as many sex workers and sex work activists as I do.
CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 22:13

Oh and-

I've seen loads of male cleaners in offices and hosps. Men are majority in some cleaning roles eg window cleaning, car valeting for public or in garages.
DH job sometimes has to clean up graffiti and said cleaning bus stations including toilets includes male cleaners.
Street cleaners usually men.
I've seen men in tube station mopping up vomit.
I know loads of male care assistants/ carers not sure right term. Supporting etc people with various issues that mean need specialist care.
The people who come to unblock drains etc tend to be male.

Etc etc etc...

The interesting thing about cleaning always being cited as essentially female when paid job on threads like these.

Is that it's to do with massive stereotypical assumptions sprinkled with a good dose of misogny.

It seems to invariably mean housework.
And it totally ignores other cleaning jobs, and also that men do cleaning jobs loads

The ACTUAL problem I'd say is that housework is the job of the woman who lives there, and it's WRONG for a woman to dodge her duty.

CheeseMmmm · 04/01/2022 22:02

There's a strong push for the popular notion in the press and underlying social belief that when it comes to most things that are not good, women are the root cause.

It's so everyday and devoid of thought.

Sex offences against women and girls?
They should have been more careful.

Abusive bloke?
You should have picked a better partner.

Poverty, children impacted?
Your choice to have children, your problem to sort out.

Unfair pay?
You should have negotiated better, like a man.

Low pay job?
Fault of women who earn more.

Not anything to do with capitalism and misogny.

Why is cleaning so often cited as THE shit job?
Pretty much everyone has to do cleaning.
Tends to fall mainly to women around the world.
(I've seen men on threads about prostitution, saying better than cleaning a few times. Just thought to wonder WHY men see cleaning as appalling job.
Because it's 'women's work'?
There's something as well about, in het relationships it's well known that cooking cleaning sex are what lots of men (often deep down) want from female partner.
Is that why it's brought up in prostitution? Both part of women's natural duties to man?

It's just so... Tired, boring etc. As old as the hills.

I mean literally this misogny is littered everywhere-

Who is to blame for garden Eden kicked out?
The woman.
(Nothing to do with the devil tempting, or Adam eating it. Obviously!).

Who fucked Samson over?
Delilah.

Harlot
Interesting googling! Bible:

' And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus'

KimikosNightmare · 04/01/2022 17:15

The reality is that someone always has to take care of children. It's still women doing it, just the women being paid by those who can afford it because they are making enough money to do so

And what is your suggestion to deal with low pay? You haven't presented anything coherent other than a lot of finger pointing and blaming.

This aspect of the thread started from the utterly ridiculous point that low wages for office cleaners is due to the fact that some highly paid workers in offices are women.

This then led on to the even more incoherent argument that high earning women are preventing other women from being stay at home mothers.

I didn't get a response as to whether the proponents of this ludicrous line of thought expected female judges, barristers, doctors etc, etc to clean their offices whilst their male counterparts of course could continue to have them cleaned.

Nor did I get any coherent response to when exactly this golden age was when working class women didn't work outside the home. Thinking back on it , coming from a farming background the farm wives helped on the farm, many of the mothers from working class homes worked (shops, the local hospital, café) Some of them were cleaners for the middle class SAHMs.

You haven't presented any coherent argument about why a parent (note the deliberate use of parent, not women) should not pay for childcare.

Your arguments would be applauded by Phyllis Schlafly. All you are saying is women should not have a career; women should not aim to be high earners; women should be at home performing their proper domestic duties.

NebbiaZanzare · 04/01/2022 16:45

I have a big soft spot for Julie Bindle. I think she really is brave (in the old sense of the word, not current usage on SM). I don’t hate feminists or feminism. I just don’t enjoy wearing a label that makes some people feel entitled to tell what I should/have to think because of said label. I don’t enjoy the assumptions about what I think and how self harming I am by not calling myself a feminist. But you can’t have everything you want in life.

And I know I do better, think better, when I keep myself outside of tribes, clans, groups, labels etc., wandering around making my own mind up on issues based on the arguments I hear without the worry that I’m leaning in a certain direction cos my sub conscious is getting worried about me riling up other clan members if I don’t pick the “right” answer.

I get to support who I want about what I want when I think they are right and could do with the support. Not cos they are on my “team” and there may be sanctions for not being a good < insert label > properly if my support does not arrive in a timely and appropriately enthusiastic manner.

Self harm would be to go back to what I did in my younger years and want to have the label, be part of “something”, and then spend so much time worried I was going to put my foot in mouth and get piled on for feministing wrong that I got less vocal, rather the more I had intended.

Which how I think an awful lot of younger feminists end up yelling TERF despite some constantly suppressed nagging doubts and questions, just to avoid getting thrown to the dogs by their own team. Peer pressure is inevitable when you make yourself part of a group, and groups can be merciless to their own who won’t get in line and make the right noises on demand.

BTDT had T-shirt, not got the figure nor the mindset to revisit that fashion.

SantaClawsServiette · 04/01/2022 16:25

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

SantaClawsServiette, there's a fundamental flaw in your argument that by helping middle-class women to achieve better opportunities (eg train as a doctor), feminism has disadvantaged working-class women.

You say the middle-class woman does this by hiring another woman to do the same work she was doing before eg by hiring a cleaner. if the woman being hired was previously in her own home looking after her own kids, she's now needed to enter the workforce to make ends meet.

But the MC woman hasn't made the WC woman go out to work. The WC woman's circumstances aren't affected by the MC woman's change of occupation, or by better training opportunities for women generally.

Blame capitalism, patriarchy, our messed-up economy or the insane cost of housing. But don't blame feminism. Your argument doesn't stand up.

Where do you think all the women working for crap wages in daycares come from? Often working for long house since they need to be able to cover the typical working hours of the parents of the kids?

The reality is that someone always has to take care of children. It's still women doing it, just the women being paid by those who can afford it because they are making enough money to do so.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 04/01/2022 16:18

Wreath21, working as a cleaner is nothing like prostitution. The only people I've ever heard expressing that view are middle-class liberals who have never come within a mile of having to do either themselves.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 04/01/2022 16:11

SantaClawsServiette, there's a fundamental flaw in your argument that by helping middle-class women to achieve better opportunities (eg train as a doctor), feminism has disadvantaged working-class women.

You say the middle-class woman does this by hiring another woman to do the same work she was doing before eg by hiring a cleaner. if the woman being hired was previously in her own home looking after her own kids, she's now needed to enter the workforce to make ends meet.

But the MC woman hasn't made the WC woman go out to work. The WC woman's circumstances aren't affected by the MC woman's change of occupation, or by better training opportunities for women generally.

Blame capitalism, patriarchy, our messed-up economy or the insane cost of housing. But don't blame feminism. Your argument doesn't stand up.

Crazykatie · 02/01/2022 08:00

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namitynamechange · 02/01/2022 01:47

@CheeseMmmm sorry, I should have been clearer. My last post was a reference to wreath's comments that "the same argument could be made about sex work". I think sex work/surrogacy/selling organs etc all exist in their own category - even though lots of other work can be physically demanding, boring, undervalued etc. I agree that the message given in the media is completely at odds with the reality.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:20

In the end this JB piece is. Bottom line. Goady, misogynist, void of feminist analysis. The end welcome them! Was just deliberate insult to injury!

But then from her this stuff is sadly not uncommon at all.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:17

Very much so.

In the end everyone is complicated, no one is perfect as it were.

These days it seems that's a fact that's pretty impossible to get to grips with for many.

Any step out of how others have decided you should be. And that negates everything else. Or, for some. Ignore/deny any ?? because impossible they think/said that.

Jkr excellent example of this. Burning her books!!! Really 🤣🤣🤣

Also the common reaction. If one person who you have categorised as in this group. If anyone you've put in that group says/does something shit. It means that every single person you've decided is in that group believes the shit thing too.

So boring.

But then... Always the same.

Remember M Jackson fans when trial?

Or whoopi g saying of Polanski it wasn't 'rape rape'

Loads of that stuff.

It's tricky when people turn out to be just... People. Rather than perfect.

(Rape is far from just not perfect... Think everyone knows what I mean though).

KimikosNightmare · 02/01/2022 01:07

@CheeseMmmm

Lol no it's a quote from poster on here!

JB seems to have issues with loads of women, and with having children pretty much full stop.

But she's definitely sound on anything to do with sexual exploitation. And the org to get justice for women done great stuff.

Phew ! Thanks.

Bindel is great on sexual exploitation , but yes, as you say - other stuff can be problematic.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:06

Oh what I meant with what you copied was-

While the piece linked has more than enough to criticise.

Still the thread attracts comment related to the area that she is rightly applauded for!

Seems odd to try to move away from criticising JB, to an area where most posters will be on same page as JB!

ah well.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:03

Lol no it's a quote from poster on here!

JB seems to have issues with loads of women, and with having children pretty much full stop.

But she's definitely sound on anything to do with sexual exploitation. And the org to get justice for women done great stuff.

KimikosNightmare · 02/01/2022 00:45

Oh yes and sod JB. And let's talk about something she is v strong on, and how she's wrong even on that!

'most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.'

Golly, is that a quote by Bindel? It sounds like pro- punter claim. I've seen that said on here by the pro- punter lobby.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 00:34

It's also interesting to note that-

On a thread about JB piece where vast majority of posters are posting negative comments about this piece,

And I think it's fair to say both the privileged/WC point raised and the prostitution point raised, were not done so by those who admire JB work andwere interested to read her thoughts...

Why not join in with the commentary on the piece?

Is the name JB in itself seen as a thread to derail to
-why feminism has been worse than useless

  • why prostitution is really no different to any other job and society etc needs to stop saying it is?

I assume the first relates to her being an academic and the second to her work.

But given the fact the thread is the opposite of yay JB, why the need to derail and so STOP a bunch of feminist women giving her a bit of a kicking?

Can you say?
Seems counter productive on this thread!

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 00:12

@namitynamechange

I also think that if you want to position feminism more towards working class women as a class, maybe don't say cleaning/other jobs more associated with WC women are the same as prostitution. Because that's kind of insulting for lots of reasons (and none of those reasons are because I look down on sex workers BTW).
Hold on back up!

The prevailing message about 'sex work' in the media online etc.

Is that it's

  • extremely lucrative, massive income even if don't do much, easy work
  • great for women because v flexible hours
  • especially good for students (usually forget to mention it's mostly female ones)
  • most women who do this are v privileged, not desperate for cash
  • empowering
  • many women derive sexual pleasure from earning money this way
  • punters usually polite, good looking, extremely well behaved, respectful
  • ...

That's very confusing.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 00:00

I mean it's such a fundamentally weak argument, especially to huge numbers of women who have sex with men (and haven't been very very lucky).

Are we supposed to ignore our experiences around men and sex? Including the ones when we were much younger and early on in being sexually active?

We're supposed to our pretend that we don't know that loads of men and boys do all sorts of shit? Even ones we trust/like/know etc?

And if sexual activity paid for... The quite obvious additional risks?

The constant insistence that danger, harm happens due to 'stigma' (word of the year for some groups of people), the law, or general misognyny across society...

Rather than MEN.

It's a vv tough sell esp to women, isn't it?

  • The group who MASSIVELY stigmatise women who sell sex...
Joke about, put at very bottom of male valuation of women scale, call all sorts of names, express zero empathy with, feel revulsion towards even if they pay for sex...

Everyone knows it's men (group, namalt etc

  • It's legal. Big arguments about how should work. An even BIGGER derail. One note- when it comes to MVAWG how are the laws working to reduce that...
  • Misogyny. Across society. Not behaviour (misogynist) of the men who do the actual harm. No sirree Bob. Women are just as responsible for men harming women, as the men who do the actual harm.

I mean in the end. If a man pays s woman for sex, and inflicts violence, sexual violence, sometimes murder. Is it his fault? Given he's not mentioned in the reasons given why this risk exists.

namitynamechange · 01/01/2022 23:29

I also think that if you want to position feminism more towards working class women as a class, maybe don't say cleaning/other jobs more associated with WC women are the same as prostitution. Because that's kind of insulting for lots of reasons (and none of those reasons are because I look down on sex workers BTW).

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/01/2022 23:00

This is the article that has done the most to explain to me why I see prostitution constantly dismissed as an easy 'job'.

extract

The world is disturbingly comfortable with the fact that women sometimes leave a sexual encounter in tears.

(continues)

The real problem isn't that we — as a culture — don't sufficiently consider men's biological reality. The problem is rather that theirs is literally the only biological reality we ever bother to consider.

So let's actually talk bodies. Let's take bodies and the facts of sex seriously for a change. And let's allow some women back into the equation, shall we? Because if you're going to wax poetic about male pleasure, you had better be ready to talk about its secret, unpleasant, ubiquitous cousin: female pain.

Research shows that 30 percent of women report pain during vaginal sex, 72 percent report pain during anal sex, and "large proportions" don't tell their partners when sex hurts.

That matters, because nowhere is our lack of practice at thinking about non-male biological realities more evident than when we talk about "bad sex." For all the calls fornuancein this discussion of what does and doesn't constitute harassment or assault, I've been dumbstruck by the flattening work of that phrase — specifically, the assumption that "bad sex" means the same thing to men who have sex with women as it does to women who have sex with men.

The studies on this are few. A casual survey of forums where people discuss "bad sex" suggests that men tend to use the term to describe a passive partner or a boring experience. (Here's a very unscientific Twitter pollI did that found just that.) But when most women talk about "bad sex," they tend to mean coercion, or emotional discomfort or, even more commonly, physical pain.Debby Herbenick, a professor at the Indiana University School of Public Health, and one of the forces behind the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, confirmed this. "When it comes to 'good sex,'" she told me, "women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

As for bad sex, University of Michigan Professor Sara McClelland, another one of the few scholars who has done rigorous work on this issue, discovered in the course of her research on how young men and women rate sexual satisfaction that "men and women imagined a very different low end of the sexual satisfaction scale."

While women imagined the low end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for themselves. ["Intimate Justice: Sexual satisfaction in young adults"]

Once you've absorbed how horrifying this is, you might reasonably conclude that our "reckoning" over sexual assault and harassment has suffered because men and women have entirely different rating scales. An 8 on a man's Bad Sex scale is like a 1 on a woman's. This tendency for men and women to use the same term — bad sex — to describe experiences an objective observer would characterize as vastly different is the flip side of a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers.

This is one reason why Sullivan's attempt to naturalize the status quo is so damaging.

When a woman says "I'm uncomfortable" and leaves a sexual encounter in tears, then, maybe she's not being a fragile flower with no tolerance for discomfort. And maybe we could stand to think a little harder about the biological realities a lot of women deal with, because unfortunately, painful sex isn't the exceptional outlier we like to pretend it is. It's pretty damn common.

In considering Sullivan's proposal, we might also, provisionally, and just as a thought experiment, accept that biology — or "nature" — coexists with history and sometimes replicates the lopsided biases of its time.

(Continues)

This is certainly true of medicine. Back in the 17th century, the conventional wisdom was that women were the ones with the rampant, undisciplined sexual appetites. That things have changed doesn't mean they're necessarily better. These days, a man can walk out of his doctor's office with a prescription for Viagra based on little but a self-report, but it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one.

Or, since sex is the subject here, what about how our society's scientific community has treated female dyspareunia — the severe physical pain some women experience during sex — vs. erectile dysfunction (which, while lamentable, is not painful)? PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43.

Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right.

Continues theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure