Page 34 | To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Blackbird1234 · 2021-12-30T18:29:38+00:00

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

FannyCann · 30/12/2021 21:05

So how about if it was a rich couple using another rich woman as a surrogate - would that be viewed in a better way?

Did any if Kim Kardashian's sisters offer to that most sisterly of generous acts if love? Any if them offer to carry those surrogate babies for her? I must have missed it.

RepentMotherfucker · 30/12/2021 21:04

Money is exchanged for adoption just under the guise of fees etc.

Not in the UK. The US yes absolutely but US adoption basically operates as a free for all surrogacy market afaik.

ontana · 30/12/2021 21:03

Yes LOJ said something similar about surrogacy didn't he?

Runningupthecurtains · 30/12/2021 21:02

If a dear friend/beloved sister volunteers to carry a baby for her sister because she has completed her family and has had easy pregnancies/births so thinks it's a lovely thing to do and all go well it is one thing but what if the baby has a birth defect/disability and the intended parents decide they don't want it? Who do you think should raise the child? Or the surrogate who absolutely thought her family was completed and that she didn't want another child feels a strong bond to the baby and doesn't want to hand it over? Who do you think should raise the child? If the surrogate dies or is disabled as a result of the birth/ pregnancy what will happen to her children? We have to make rules based on all possible outcomes not just the best possible outcome.

EarthSight · 30/12/2021 21:01

@ontana

There is no scale. It's immoral.

Tom Daley's husband calls women terfs for saying transwomen aren't women. Maybe he should have asked a transwoman to gestate his kid for him then.

Indeed.

I don't think any of us are surprised when men suddenly know exactly what a woman is when it comes to getting what they want.

Yarnivore · 30/12/2021 20:57

[quote Blackbird1234]@Dozer That's strange, why would they ask a woman who needs fertility treatment? Or do you always need it when being a surrogate?[/quote]
How else do they get the embryo in?

ontana · 30/12/2021 20:54

@Dozer That's strange, why would they ask a woman who needs fertility treatment? Or do you always need it when being a surrogate?

Are you for real OP??

IrishMama2015 · 30/12/2021 20:54

@Blackbird1234

Not sure how this fits in but a main issue seems to be the fact of people "buying" children. Does that mean that you also see fault with adoption? Or no, simply because money isn't necessarily exchanged?

Money is exchanged for adoption just under the guise of fees etc. Adoptees are more and more speaking out saying adoption was traumatic and often fails at one point or another. People have a right to their biological information and if at all possible their biological parents

EishetChayil · 30/12/2021 20:52

@Blackbird1234

Would a baby really notice that its new mother is not the one it was grown in? I don't have children, so genuinely don't know.

Absolutely. My daughter was minutes old, being washed and weighed after our c-section. I spoke her name and she turned her head to my voice. Newborns know their mother. Their mother is all they know.

Original poster

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 20:52

@Dozer That's strange, why would they ask a woman who needs fertility treatment? Or do you always need it when being a surrogate?

OP posts:

ontana · 30/12/2021 20:52

There is no scale. It's immoral.

Tom Daley's husband calls women terfs for saying transwomen aren't women. Maybe he should have asked a transwoman to gestate his kid for him then.

RepentMotherfucker · 30/12/2021 20:52

@Blackbird1234

I'm saying a scale as there seems to be one on this thread, with some saying its absolutely awful in all circumstances and others saying it's ok in some circumstances. Not talking about in reality, just in reference to this thread.

@NynaeveSedai Do we know for a fact that the woman they are having the baby from is vulnerable?

I'll admit there's a couple of idiots who clearly haven't RTFT. Or hate babies.

Still can't see a scale.

EarthSight · 30/12/2021 20:52

Given how much misogyny that women still experience in the world, given how many men still view women as lesser beings who are simply support humans for their domestic or reproductive needs, the last thing we should be promoting is the idea that women's bodies are for sale, that young women are simply ovens for hire.

It might be temporality advantageous for individuals, but bad overall for women's rights and that affects all of us.

sheroku · 30/12/2021 20:50

I don't see a scale. I see lots of people saying it's absolutely wrong to create a baby to deliberately remove it from its mother.

Exactly. Apart from in the vanishingly rare examples of sisters or best friends as surrogates who then go on to have a relationship with the child then I think it's wrong.

Dozer · 30/12/2021 20:49

Tom Daley and his husband paid a woman to undergo fertility treatment and have a DC with a sperm from one of them and a donor egg. Commercial surrogacy.

V unethical. As outlined by PPs, various risks to the mother and DC.

Original poster

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 20:48

I'm saying a scale as there seems to be one on this thread, with some saying its absolutely awful in all circumstances and others saying it's ok in some circumstances. Not talking about in reality, just in reference to this thread.

@NynaeveSedai Do we know for a fact that the woman they are having the baby from is vulnerable?

OP posts:

NynaeveSedai · 30/12/2021 20:46

Tom Daley and husband buy their babies from surrogates in the states I believe where paying vulnerable women to endanger themselves for pay and sell babies is legal.
Also his husband calls women TERFs on the internet which is a bit Rich from a man who exploits female reproductive labour to make his family which is an added flavour of ick.

RepentMotherfucker · 30/12/2021 20:45

@Blackbird1234

It seems that there is somewhat of a scale - sister or loved one or selfless individual gifting a baby to someone who can't have one is mostly seen as ok, but wealthy couple/paedo essentially forcing a poor woman into it is very much not ok. So then we shouldn't actually judge someone without having all the facts. Which leads me to my next question - I saw a few posts condemning Tom Daley as a terrible person as he has (is having?) a child through surrogacy. Do we know the facts of that and where his situation is on the scale?

I don't see a scale. I see lots of people saying it's absolutely wrong to create a baby to deliberately remove it from its mother.

Which it is.

Brusca · 30/12/2021 20:45

Where are you getting the idea of a scale?

Original poster

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 20:40

It seems that there is somewhat of a scale - sister or loved one or selfless individual gifting a baby to someone who can't have one is mostly seen as ok, but wealthy couple/paedo essentially forcing a poor woman into it is very much not ok. So then we shouldn't actually judge someone without having all the facts. Which leads me to my next question - I saw a few posts condemning Tom Daley as a terrible person as he has (is having?) a child through surrogacy. Do we know the facts of that and where his situation is on the scale?

OP posts:

NynaeveSedai · 30/12/2021 20:36

maintaining that relationship with the surrogate seems quite rare and is clearly to the detriment of the child.

Why would it be detrimental to the child to maintain a relationship with their birth mother?

Sofawithoutstuffing · 30/12/2021 20:27

[quote LostForIdeas]@Oneforthemoneytwo I know someone who did that too.
Had her own business, two dcs of her own and was passionate about supporting women/pregnant women
She saw surrogacy as a way to support another woman and to give a beautiful gift.[/quote]
But what about the risk of leaving her existing children without a mother? Surrogacy is a riskier process than a normal pregnancy. There was the recent death of Michelle Reaves in the USA where the mother of two, who was acting as a surrogate for another family, died during childbirth. And the from her husband following her death.

Soontobe60 · 30/12/2021 20:25

@Oneforthemoneytwo

I know someone who was a surrogate. She is a professional woman with a husband and 3 of her own children. She had absolutely no financial need to be a surrogate and she put herself forward after reading about someone who couldn’t get pregnant. The egg and sperm were from the couple she was surrogate for. It was straightforward and successful: she has no regrets at all: it was simply something she says she had always wanted to do,

So she was ticking something off her bucket list? Most of us are happy with a tattoo or a holiday in Thailand.

Clymene · 30/12/2021 20:23

[quote LostForIdeas]@Couchbettato I think that goes without saying!

What I was pointing out earlier on is what is the impact of the genetic mother on the baby?
We know that children who are born for donor egg or donor sperm often have a strong wish to know more about their genetic parent. We know there are often some major discoveries such ‘oh this person has this maneurism/that taste’ etc….
It’s not possible to say that there isn’t a genetic link to the baby with the genetic mother.

That doesn’t mean that there is no link with the woman who carried the baby!

But it makes me wonder what is, for the baby and then child, the most important thing?? Has there been any studies around that, maybe from children who were born via egg donor?[/quote]
I think children absolutely need to know their genetic origins. I fundamentally disagree with using anonymous donor gametes or (worse) lying about the use of donor gametes.

As far as I know, a surrogate mother in the U.K. must use the gametes of at least one genetic parent.

Garriet · 30/12/2021 20:23

@Dozer

Even UK surrogacy often involves quite high ‘expenses’.

Yes, it’s very easy to manipulate bills to be recorded as expenses. Tens of thousands of pounds. I’ve seen it happen personally (I work within the family court systems).

For me there are numerous issues.

I’ve never seen a rich surrogate. Even those who say it’s altruistic are claiming many thousands in expenses in the U.K., and none of them are wealthy.

Increased physical risks in pregnancy for women carrying donor eggs.

Increased risks to mental health of the surrogate.

Trauma of separation at birth for the baby, who has no say in any of it.

Full disclosure: I’m infertile. A close friend of mine offered to carry a child for me. I love her and I appreciated the love she showed in making such a selfless offer. I thanked her profusely. I said no.