To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

RTFT!

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

So you are comfortable advocating for women to exploited though. That women are put into this predicament because why? They need money? They feel guilt / family pressure / have a mental health issue / whatever reason.

Just how many purely altruistic surrogacies do you think occur? How many friends and family will swear they are not pressured but know that their will be damage to their relationships if they don’t do it?

You seem to be convinced that

FannyCann OhHolyJesus

Do either of you have the article in which a lawyer outlines the contract in California that specified that should the mother end up on life support the intended parents would get to decide on continuing or not? I know it’s been posted before, I just can’t find it.

Who am I to judge someone that wants to donate their eggs to help others?

Who am I to say the receiver of the donor eggs is selfish for receiving them?

It’s nothing to do with me

And thank you Fanny and ohholy for the thoughtful links and posts.

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

And here is an account from a woman who was an altruistic surrogate mother for very good friends. It all went horribly wrong and they dropped her once they had the babies. She is left with PTSD and birth injuries.

You will find several other interesting articles on the Nordic Model Now website which will explain the issues further.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

Good luck on your journey of learning OP and well done for asking.

ldontWanna

I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say btw.

So then going back to what we talking about before regarding women bring kids in to the world where the dad has said he wants nothing to do with the child…

Does that father- child not matter?….

Your whatsboutery is getting repetitive.

The ideal situation is that the child has both parents. Of course it is. But, of course, that family configuration may not be available. So, again, a child that is already born has needs that is very different to one deliberately created for a specific purpose- that of being removed from its mother at birth.

We can go round and round but the facts will still be that they are different situations. BOTH will likely have effects on the child’s mental health, but in different ways.

This is being studied now and the indications are that even children from IVF have issues that they have to work through. Those children, now older adults are talking about it via social media and at seminars.

Or don’t their views count?

@OhHolyJesus

Apologies, I had a quick look back at that thread and I replied twice but I was referring to fact I disagree that all prostitution is coerced.

Link to Venus Rising podcast I mentioned.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000517068532

Starcup

You haven’t answered how you propose to create an adequate framework given the examples I provided even in the circumstances of a woman who isn’t remotely coerced.

[quote OhHolyJesus]Remember that Thai case where the baby-buyers pulled out of the sale because the baby was going to be disabled?

Baby Gammy is now 7 his paedophile father died of asbestos and his twin sister doesn't have to have weekly lessons about how she can't be alone with her father anymore. He has Down's syndrome and lives happily with his mother, though they don't live with a lot. She wasn't expecting to be a mother after all. His sister doesn't seem to know about him yet.

In some North African cultures it's customary for siblings to have a baby for their childless sibling. If you read 18th century history that's also not anything unusual either.

Surrogacy is in the Bible too.

sometimes couples seeking fertility services get incentives for donating eggs?!?

You remembered correctly, it's called egg sharing. U.K. Clinics offer discounts for those who join this scheme. You get a letter if your egg results in a live birth. Obviously this can happen regardless of what happens with the eggs for your own IVF.

There was a documentary on the BBC maybe only last year about seemingly unregulated surrogacy in the UK.

Was that the one on BBC 3? I read a review of that. [[https://stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2021/05/31/surrogacy-in-the-media-a-review-of-bbc-threes-the-surrogates-long-read]]/

But you don’t get to decide because it’s not your choice

That's exactly why I posted about law reform of U.K. surrogacy laws on the other thread you and I were on Starcup. The laws of the land are for and apply to everyone.

However, I can also feel 100% confident that there are numerous instances of young women having strokes and losing their ovaries after ‘donating’ eggs for money. And losing their own fertility before they have ever had their own children.

As you should - for those interested examples of this, and worse, can be found by watching Eggsploitation on you tube.

Surrogacy is completely banned in Iceland , Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Bulgaria and Spain.
And Thailand outlaws commercial surrogacy after Baby Gammy, as does India, though trafficking rings are exposed and investigated. A recent one in Russia followed when a dead baby was found outside an apartment. It was a baby den.

Here is an example of a woman having a baby for her sister in law.

[[https://www.premiumtimesng.com/regional/ssouth-west/455958-how-belgian-hospital-mistakenly-amputated-cervix-paralysed-two-nigerian-women.html?fbclid=IwAR3CblA92-ZCxrgWWs9WLAJQEFmhFRL6_iN1GCjGYp1cuGGhyp8U-CLvXFo]][/quote]
I think you have me mistaken for someone else as as far as I recall, the only thing I posted on the other one was that I didn’t agree with the poster that said no medical intervention should be available to any childless couple.

Happy to be corrected though….

Starcup

NameChange74567

The baby will still want it's mother

So what happens if 2 men adopt a baby? Should that no be allowed as they need a mum?

Do you really not understand the difference between surrogacy and adoption? Well clearly you don't or you wouldn't have asked that question.

And here is a link to the CBC (Centre for Bioethics and Culture Network) (which is Jennifer Lahl's foundation) YouTube where she interviews the husband of a woman who died as a result of her surrogate pregnancy earlier this year. His dignity and love for her shine out but it is an appalling situation and this could happen as the result of any surrogate pregnancy.

Of course it could happen in any pregnancy, I have personally been involved with two women patients who died as a result of childbirth. But they were having children for themselves.
Putting women at risk of harm like this because other people want to use their bodies to gestate a baby for them is completely unacceptable to me.

What makes surrogacy any more 'renting of a body' than any other physical labour?

Leaving the needs of the child aside.

Because there is a very high risk of complications during that conception, pregnancy, labour and after. This very pregnancy involves a woman’s body building another human inside her with no control.

There is also often little ability for the mother to then ‘leave’ the job.

The list goes on. This is like for 9 months having a person grow an item inside them for someone else. This is not equivalent to a person doing their job role, unless they lose the ability to leave the job and the ability to make significant changes to the role.

If we look at the world as a whole, the majority of children are born into circumstances that people on here would not consider adequate. A baby born through surrogacy to a western couple would be in the top couple of percent of the luckiest, most secure, comfortable and wanted children in the world. A guaranteed warm home, two loving parents, an education (until 18, at least!), not married against their will, no conflict, no chance of starvation or future of poverty. Probably their own bedroom and presents multiple times a year, a wide family network and the chance to make friends in one place without having to move.

Babies who were removed from their mothers, families and communities deemed not good enough, and handed to people who had money and status, or put in institutions when they aged out of being cute babies or were disabled or considered sub-par in some way, are still seeking information, reparation and apologist today. Babies were taken from mothers in poverty, from indigenous communities, minority ethnic and religious groups, and so on, to do what you are suggesting, the idyll of the good life. Many experienced extreme trauma as a result.

Wouldn't it be better to campaign for decent welfare and support services could mean children could remain within their own families and communities? Do you really know what you are proposing and that it has been done before, that their are people today who were victims of exactly what you describe?

It is a form of eugenics.

Although what that has got to do with the fact Iceland et al having a complete ban on surrogacy escapes me.

Father child relationship

So then going back to what we talking about before regarding women bring kids in to the world where the dad has said he wants nothing to do with the child…

Does that father- child not matter?….

*quote

FFS

Sorry, that was to Starcup - quite didn't work....

If a man is clear that he under no circumstances wants to have any involvement with a child that he might co-create then I respectfully suggest that he may want to abstain from having sex. It's not a woman's job to "fix it" for him after the fact.