Page 26 | To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Blackbird1234 · 2021-12-30T18:29:38+00:00

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

FannyCann · 31/12/2021 09:52

This gay man who has been actively promoting surrogacy for single me. in the news, on TV couldn't make it clearer that he regards women as walking wombs who should provide babies to order. He said on TV "Because I am gay I don't have access to a womb". He also bemoaned the stress of going to surrogacy meet ups in the hope of connecting with a womb woman who was prepared to have a baby for him, complaining that "surrogates have all the power - they get to choose". How awful, right? Those mean women hoarding their reproductive rights and choosing who to have a baby for.

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

TheMissingMango · 31/12/2021 09:51

I just can't get my head around there being women who have this burning desire to sell/give away a baby.

Original poster

Blackbird1234 · 31/12/2021 09:49

@FannyCann Thanks so so much for all the links, you're absolutely amazing! I 100% do want to learn more about all of this, so they will be very valuable.

After having slept on it and read all of the posts on here, my opinion on surrogacy is forming more and more so thank you all so much for your posts. I've got a bit more learning to do yet, though.

OP posts:

FannyCann · 31/12/2021 09:45

@NynaeveSedai Ah, didnt think of that! Are there any stats on the percentage of surrogate "buyers" being gay men?

@PurpleDaisies Probably a naive/stereotypical view, but I would've thought that it would be women who would try absolutely every single avenue to acquire a child rather than men. When I think of a baby, I think of a woman, not a man and that a man would find it easier to live without one, rather than consider surrogacy.

@Blackbird1234

Here are some statistics from the Law Commission Surrogacy Consultation paper which is now a couple of years out of date. A lot of wealthy gay men go abroad, typically to the USA so they won't be counted in the stats. The numbers of gay men seeking surrogacy arrangements is definitely on the rise and there are several who are very active, starting their own agency, having "trade fairs" around the world and pushing for law reform to widen their access to babies through surrogacy. Infertile women have been used as a Trojan horse because the new buzz phrase is "reproductive equality" meaning gay men should have equal access to surrogacy and the service that support it. I see it as men demanding rights to be provided with babies by a breeder class of woman.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 31/12/2021 09:40

In the U.K., rich women aren't hiring poor women

oh yeah?

This is the story of a couple exploiting a young woman in the UK
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3157706/I-ll-never-Burger-King-baby-gay-fathers-Surrogate-mother-reveals-heartbreaking-story-lifts-lid-Britain-s-chaotic-cruel-baby-trade.html

she was hassled into signing an agreement she hadn't read, without legal advice

she was given drugs to administer to herself (by injecting herself in the stomach) without being advised of the serious risks

the couple didn't buy her the life insurance they had promised

the whole thing is an exploitative mess, and it happened in the UK

mrkramps · 31/12/2021 09:38

Just blame the barrens for surrogacy. Fucking lazy.

Bit PurpleDausies, nobody's blaming them but most women who can safely carry a baby to term aren't hiring surrogates. I'm sides we've all seen news stories, portrayed as heartwarming, where an infertile couple uses a surrogate mother

A Herero couple with sperm issues will get fonor sperm or eggs but if there's an issue with miscarriage etc. They may do surrogacy after

It's not a personal attack unless you have hired a surrogate mother yourself

Helleofabore · 31/12/2021 09:38

OhHolyJesus

I am outta wine as well as fish. Since you are famous and all, apparently, love it if you could do your magic trick.

Although, I have been advised that some saint has withdrawn fish from sale because we are naughty wims in this corner, and we should know better on strategic use of fish.

ChattyLion · 31/12/2021 09:26

Can everyone relying on ‘everything is always OK so long as there is consent’ please look at the horrific stories of long term harm for women and babies and emerging from the Parliamentary inquiry on women being historically pressured or forced to give up their babies for anonymous adoption.

committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/news/159804/jchr-examines-historic-treatment-of-unmarried-mothers-in-adoption-inquiry/

mrkramps · 31/12/2021 09:25

@GoGoGretaDoll

I think OP that when a lot of people hear 'surrogacy' they think about the current British model - the kind of thing you read about in the paper where a sister has had a baby for her sister. This is heavily regulated in the UK and, by law, hardly any money changes hands and the baby is part of a wider family and still in contact with their surrogate. I don't think many people have an issue with this, it's not something that would upset me as a person or a feminist.

But the kind of surrogacy that is becoming more and more prevalent is where rich people from the UK pay for surrogacy from abroad, where it is much, much more of a commercial enterprise. There is a huge power imbalance, and essentially it's baby farming. There was a terrible story in lockdown about a nursery full of babies just being left alone in their cots because their 'parents' couldn't get into the country because of lockdown. There was also another extremely disturbing story about an Australian 'parent' refusing to take a surrogate baby because the baby had been born with a disability. That's just two stories from an issue that's becoming increasingly commodified.

Same. It's type 2 (international) that is really problematic.

In the U.K., rich women aren't hiring poor women. When I first heard this argument i was confused because celebs are going to be scavenging council sites. But I realised it's couples going abroad and exploiting women in poor countries, using agencies.

mrkramps · 31/12/2021 09:22

@Devilmakes3

So how about if it was a rich couple using another rich woman as a surrogate - would that be viewed in a better way

Thin end of the wedge right there.

What is actually happening is that poorer women with fewer economic opportunities in Eastern Europe (Ukraine for example) and Asia (India for example) are being paid to participate in a risky proposition, pregnancy is inherently risky in terms of both morbidity and mortality especially in poorer countries to make available babies for rich western people. It is exploitation. Among many other issues for the children which we have already experienced in countries where forced adoptions took place widely in the past.

These international surrogacy things should totally be illegal. There's only one reason couples look overseas and thats to save money.

It's going to come at a cost, obviously. More like coercion than consent in cases like this

Starcup · 31/12/2021 09:21

@OhHolyJesus

But you’re removing every responsibility from the woman and placing in the hand of the public, who aren’t involved at all.

You know women are half of 'the public' right? That would include mothers, surrogate mothers, adopting mothers, single women, lesbians, sisters....

Surrogate mothers, commissioning parents and surrogacy agencies and charities all responded to the initial call for the public consultation. The government asked the law commission to conduct a public consultation prior to reforming the law. It is common practice. Conversion therapy is a recent one you might want to look at, it is still open.

Please do let me know what you think of the other examples I listed. I'm interested to know what you think of the paedophile especially and the paralysed woman especially.

I could see you were pretty ‘famous’ on your last thread as well with your opinions.

I seenu put comment about the examples you’ve just given but that happens up and down the country sadly and not specific to surrogacy…

purplehairlady · 31/12/2021 09:18

@Blackbird1234

So how about if it was a rich couple using another rich woman as a surrogate - would that be viewed in a better way?

Unethical or not, surely with something like this as long as there is full consent from all parties it should be fine?

Both genuine questions, not snippy replies.

Yes. But the fact it never happens when they're two unrelated parties should tell you all you need to know...

NotBadConsidering · 31/12/2021 09:16

No, I’m advocating for people to stop making out woman are incapable of deciding to do something others wouldn’t chose to do.

And if she changes her mind? Has a complication she didn’t think of? Or the conditions change or are changed outside of her control?

And who checks she’s doing it freely and isn’t being coerced?

Just because someone can freely choose to do something doesn’t mean as a society we can just let them do it. There’s a responsibility to protect and safeguard the worst case scenarios.

TeenMinusTests · 31/12/2021 09:09

Generally we also have regulations in other areas to stop people being taken advantage of due to their lack of through understanding of all the issues (eg financial areas).

OhHolyJesus · 31/12/2021 09:07

Women CAN weigh up the risks.

The ones they know about yes.

Some whataboutery for you:

Is there are No risks
And
There are No known risks

The same thing?

The surrogate mother Lydia Cox who died, whose husband, Trey Cox, speaks about her pregnancy and death, also said explicitly that she knew about the condition that killed her. So she knew what the risks were, so it's her own fault, just one of those things I guess...🤷🏼‍♀️

TeenMinusTests · 31/12/2021 09:06

I think we as a society need to decide on the ethics and morality of surrogacy, just as we do on lots of other issues.

We don't allow organs to be bought & sold.
We don't allow private adoption at all.
Why should we allow surrogacy?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 31/12/2021 09:04

But you’re removing every responsibility from the woman and placing in the hand of the public, who aren’t involved at all

can I buy one of your kidneys please? I'd really like one. Why should the public get to say that's illegal, they aren't involved at all

OhHolyJesus · 31/12/2021 09:04

But you’re removing every responsibility from the woman and placing in the hand of the public, who aren’t involved at all.

You know women are half of 'the public' right? That would include mothers, surrogate mothers, adopting mothers, single women, lesbians, sisters....

Surrogate mothers, commissioning parents and surrogacy agencies and charities all responded to the initial call for the public consultation. The government asked the law commission to conduct a public consultation prior to reforming the law. It is common practice. Conversion therapy is a recent one you might want to look at, it is still open.

Please do let me know what you think of the other examples I listed. I'm interested to know what you think of the paedophile especially and the paralysed woman especially.

Starcup · 31/12/2021 09:02

@NotBadConsidering

That’s up to them. Not my business.

In that case you’re admitting that the act of two people asking a woman to bring a baby into the world for them to remove from her is the Wild West, completely beyond any form of regulation, left for the people themselves to decide. This will inevitably lead to conflict, both legal and moral, and exploitation.

No, I’m advocating for people to stop making out woman are incapable of deciding to do something others wouldn’t chose to do.

Starcup · 31/12/2021 08:58

@OhHolyJesus

It’s boring as sin, hearing the same arguments over and over but but but….

I could say the same about the whataboutery from you! No one has a gun to your head, forcing you to read or engage either.

My concerns come from how I was convinced it was all altruistic and lovely, I hadn't thought about it much. I took the media message at face value and didn't look beyond. Then I did. You don't have to change your mind when you read or learn more, you can stay of the same opinion and think you're right and let that be that. That's also fine. Others, like the OP, want to find out more. Maybe they are just a inquisitive or curious.

If you wanted to read some of the links posted and come back and tell us how you haven't changed your mind then that's also fine. Did you read about the woman who had a baby for her sister in law in Belgium and ended up paralysed? Did you read about the laws in Iceland or the paedophile in Australia who took the baby girl twin and left the baby boy twin? Or read the essay from the altruistic surrogate mother who deeply regrets her pregnancy? Or how in America a woman can be kept as a vegetative incubator if the commissioning parents decide to?

If a woman decides to do it then it's up to her though, sure I get it. If she does then it's her own fault really, she knew what she was getting into. It's nothing to do with you.

But you’re removing every responsibility from the woman and placing in the hand of the public, who aren’t involved at all.

Women CAN weigh up the risks.

You say about not discussing anything other than surrogacy (fair enough in general but sometimes things naturally deviate) but such strong opinions that woman are incapable of making informed decisions and we as other women should do it for them, is problematic as well

NotBadConsidering · 31/12/2021 08:56

That’s up to them. Not my business.

In that case you’re admitting that the act of two people asking a woman to bring a baby into the world for them to remove from her is the Wild West, completely beyond any form of regulation, left for the people themselves to decide. This will inevitably lead to conflict, both legal and moral, and exploitation.

OhHolyJesus · 31/12/2021 08:55

@IdontWanna for you - I didn't want to let your comment pass without commenting. Very sorry for your beginnings, I hope you have found your roots or have made peace with it.

Genealogical bewilderment is a horrible thing to live with. It can have a greater impact than some people realise. I hope you have been able to process it somehow, and had the help and guidance that you needed.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 31/12/2021 08:54

You won't see a Hollywood star be a surrogate. They only benefit from them

Think about why that is

bears repeating

privileged people hire surrogates

the women they hire are not rich or privileged, that's why they're risking their health for money

OhHolyJesus · 31/12/2021 08:52

@Helleofabore

ohHolyJ

You live up to your name and have a never ending supply of fish.

Or wine.

OhHolyJesus · 31/12/2021 08:51

It’s boring as sin, hearing the same arguments over and over but but but….

I could say the same about the whataboutery from you! No one has a gun to your head, forcing you to read or engage either.

My concerns come from how I was convinced it was all altruistic and lovely, I hadn't thought about it much. I took the media message at face value and didn't look beyond. Then I did. You don't have to change your mind when you read or learn more, you can stay of the same opinion and think you're right and let that be that. That's also fine. Others, like the OP, want to find out more. Maybe they are just a inquisitive or curious.

If you wanted to read some of the links posted and come back and tell us how you haven't changed your mind then that's also fine. Did you read about the woman who had a baby for her sister in law in Belgium and ended up paralysed? Did you read about the laws in Iceland or the paedophile in Australia who took the baby girl twin and left the baby boy twin? Or read the essay from the altruistic surrogate mother who deeply regrets her pregnancy? Or how in America a woman can be kept as a vegetative incubator if the commissioning parents decide to?

If a woman decides to do it then it's up to her though, sure I get it. If she does then it's her own fault really, she knew what she was getting into. It's nothing to do with you.