To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

(both in financial and other less obvious profits)

Human rights and abuse / exploitation of vulnerable persons really is a post war belief. Prior to that it was really seen by the middle classes as fair game.

The West then in adopting this, continued to turn a blind eye to foreign exploitation and arguably sort to expand it as workers rights domestically were expanded and made many manufacturers less competitive.

We never sort to push up standards elsewhere. Which was part of the problem.

In recent years theres been a backlash but this has been about reversing the rights of the more vulnerable domestically rather than focusing and encouraging the expansion of rights abroad.

It all comes back to who pays and who makes profit.

Flip it and talk about surrogacy and you suddenly have a bunch of the same people tripping over themselves to support the idea of women as incubators without a shred of self critical examination.

I find the whole spectacle utterly disturbing because of the level of cognitive dissonance it involves.

Rather than understanding these 'liberal' voices being pro women you have to start questioning whats really going on.

Thats not an extreme position. Thats an observation of why there is opposition to women as incubators under one set of circumstances but hell go for your life under others and its fine to use the law to sign away women's rights (even if these are potentially vulnerable or coerced women)

Its become religious level fanatism from both ends of the scale. Neither centre women. Neither consider the harm to women and children. Neither understand the world as being somewhere which allows the state approved abuse of women and reduces them to a womb.

Its 100% about who controls reproductive rights. Its not women who are caught up in this. Its powerful lobby groups who either want babies on order or want to order babies to be born for their own political and self interest.

The women involved are just the football in the middle. To be kicked.

Women who enter a surrogacy arrangement in this way are effectively leaving themselves vulnerable to potential financial abuse.

Unless you complete the legal side (which you cannot do without attracting questions as to why - not ideal if you are trying to hide an illegal surrogacy) the mother is still a legal part of the child's life in some way.

How have we come to the point where being anti using women as manufacturers of saleable babies is the extreme view?

‘Be kind’.

That is how.

Obviously on the feminist boards the majority of posters hold extreme views,but that’s ok because that’s the same as many emotive subjects

How have we come to the point where being anti using women as manufacturers of saleable babies is the extreme view?

Well you can't prevent a parent from giving up all parental responsibility for their children. Thousands of men do it every year.

They don't though. They rather just walk away which is different (I mean legal rather than practical). To actually give up parental responsibility you would have to hand a child over to the care system or allow the child to be adopted (eg by the mother's new partner).

@Runningupthecurtains - Well you can't prevent a parent from giving up all parental responsibility for their children. Thousands of men do it every year. But typically surrogate mothers don't use their own eggs.

I think it would be very rare for a woman to give her child to a male friend and his husband to raise but yes, I guess that's a possibility.

Blackbird1234 I apologise for not thinking you were posting in good faith yesterday. Thanks for responding so maturely. Im glad this thread has been useful :)

It’s not to say that there aren’t pitfalls in the more altruistic surrogacy, buy by judging your comments, you can appreciate it not the same as a rich western couple paying money to a woman in a third world county to be their surrogate.

Some people view it equally as bad. Then there’s the ones that go a step further and view any medical intervention to help a woman have her own baby equally bad again.

People are of course entitled to their opinions but I do think people pass judgements about others without considering that not everything can be lumped together as ‘terrible’

Of course it's not impossible to regulate against. Many many countries have legislation in place. Selling children is not that easy in the developed world.

But that’s my point, some people view surrogacy of any sort to be immoral and they lump it under the same umbrella term as ‘immoral under every set of circumstances’.

They don’t care what the circumstances are and they view the gesture of a best friend offering to be the surrogate to enable her childless friend have her own baby as almost criminal.
I'm not sure what the point is in the first sentence - some people think sex outside of marriage is immoral - that's their view and they are allowed to hold that view.
I'm slightly on the fence about genuinely altruistic surrogacy because I have concerns about the outcomes when something doesn't go according to plan and because some women could be made to feel that they should acts as surrogates because it would make their sister/friend happy. I also have doubts about the resulting children will feel about the circumstances that they were born into but I recognize that this is almost impossible to regulate against as it can be done on the QT. It would be legally very hard to stop woman A having a baby with man B and allowing him full custody on the birth of the child (even if B happens to be married to A's sister). Likewise it would be hard to stop lesbian couple C&D meeting gay couple E&F and deciding that C & E will have a child that C&D raise while D&F have a child that E&F raise. Commercial surrogacy and indeed any that uses fertility treatments are much easier to legislate against.

My issue with surrogacy is simple: Have a look at the countries where this practice is legal... what is the society like? What is the position of women in that society? Is it a 1st or 3rd world country? Is there a social security system in place, what type of economy, what is the wage structure ....
But it looks like nobody wants to ask these questions. In fact, ignorance is family bliss!

@Blackbird1234

@FannyCann You said you'd like an update on the outcome from the OP (me), do you mean you'd like to hear which opinion I've formed based off this thread?

I do apologise.

I meant the OP of the thread I linked where her surrogacy arrangement with two gay friends had gone badly wrong. I'd love to know what was eventually decided about the baby that no one seemed to want.

They don’t care what the circumstances are and they view the gesture of a best friend offering to be the surrogate to enable her childless friend have her own baby as almost criminal.

I haven't said I don't feel judged - just that I don't let that judgement upset me. I am capable of sharing views on one topic with someone without having to agree with everything else they think. Some people who don't agree with surrogacy are religious, I'm not. Some are anti-abortion, I'm not. I imagine some are flat earthers and anti-vaxers, I'm not. I don't find it anyway challenging to say I agree with X view but disagree with Y view.
I'm not 'judging' individuals and their desire to be or use a surrogate - I absolutely understand how powerful the urge to have a baby can be, I'm thinking at the bigger picture and how the 'good' of the kind, loving heartfelt offer of a sister or a best friend offering to help a loved one fulfill their dream weighs against the downsides of the babies that were stuck in orphanages when the international commercial surrogacy bandwagon ground to halt when Covid shut down international travel.

Because IVF and surrogacy aren't the same thing. You can have IVF without surrogacy and you can have surrogacy without IVF.
I know it's terribly un2020's of me but I'm OK with people having an opposing view to me. I know some people disapprove of IVF, that's their prerogative. Fortunately for me it is legal here in the UK in the 21st century so I was able to have it. Commercial surrogacy is not legal the UK so those who are rich enough circumvent that by going abroad. I know and had to accept that there are limits on what I could legally do to have a child I couldn't just demand that it is my right to have child and expect society to provide one for me at someone else's expense

It’s great being able to accept differences of opinions and you might not think surrogacy is the same as IVF (obviously it’s not) but the point is, not everyone views it as different, some people totally view it as immoral.

I’m really pleased you don’t feel judged by those people though and you can overlook that fact that they judge you, as long as you can both be judgemental together about other people and they’re circumstances….

"Obviously on the feminist boards the majority of posters hold extreme views, but that’s ok because that’s the same as many emotive subjects."

It's OK Red I'm infertile so I'm allowed, not as allowed as a gay man obviously but a little bit allowed. I think I can do sad faces too but as I have a child thanks IVF I'm not sure if I have to knock this on the head now

I must say I do find it rather ironic that you’re aligning yourself with people with extreme views regarding surrogacy, considering some of these people, actively disagree with a procedure you’ve had.

Good job they weren’t in charge eh? Or your circumstances would be very different. You might joke about it now but I’m sure you wouldn’t if they got their way…..