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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

987 replies

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 18:29

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

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OhHolyJesus · 01/01/2022 22:23

Oh no, oven is so early 2000s, now it's 'extreme babysitter' (though the addictive part is equally as worrying).

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/surrogacy-addictive-see-role-extreme-babysitting/

It's slightly ironic too as on a per hourly rate you would be paid more if you were just babysitting and not growing a human.

NotBadConsidering · 01/01/2022 22:20

Had it not already been done previously? Has another poster not previously told she’s done it twice… ask her about your legal framework.

But you’re the one who thinks women who choose freely to do it should be allowed to, but it seems you’re happy to defer the difficult decisions of actually looking after those women to other people. Which means you don’t actually care about those women who choose to do it. There’s a lot of hand waving and putting things in the too hard basket.

But it’s exactly these sorts of decisions around protections that have to be decided before you say anyone can be free to do it. The reason you can’t or won’t engage with this question is because you clearly see it’s not possible. You must identify that you’re happy to let these women choose to do it but don’t care about the consequences to them as long as you get to say you’re all for their choice. It’s a very immature teenage way of debating.

FannyCann · 01/01/2022 22:19

Did someone say cake?
Isn't that what surrogate mothers are encouraged to think of themselves? Just an oven, baking a cake?

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
RepentMotherfucker · 01/01/2022 22:11

@Starcup

Is this ‘bonding’ chat between similar view points. Aww it’s Lovely 😊
Well it's marginally more useful than discussing surrogacy with someone who doesn't seem to really understand any of the ethical issues involved; ignores all points made and questions posed and constantly says, 'good luck explaining that to all the people who do x' as though that's a winning argument.

Surrogacy is bad for babies. Therefore it is unethical. That is as simple as I can make it.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 22:07

@NotBadConsidering

We don’t believe women when they say they want to do it as they see it as a positive in order to help someone.

I’ll ask you again Starcup, in this scenario, how do you create a legal framework that protects all three parties’ rights?

I don’t create a legal framework….

Had it not already been done previously? Has another poster not previously told she’s done it twice… ask her about your legal framework.

NotBadConsidering · 01/01/2022 22:00

We don’t believe women when they say they want to do it as they see it as a positive in order to help someone.

I’ll ask you again Starcup, in this scenario, how do you create a legal framework that protects all three parties’ rights?

Starcup · 01/01/2022 21:53

Is this ‘bonding’ chat between similar view points. Aww it’s Lovely 😊

RepentMotherfucker · 01/01/2022 21:52

@ldontWanna

Ffs, this is painful....
IKR?

Is it time for cake recipes?

ldontWanna · 01/01/2022 21:43

Ffs, this is painful....

Starcup · 01/01/2022 21:35

Brilliant come back - well with the effort to get your point across 👏

RepentMotherfucker · 01/01/2022 21:27

My dissatisfaction with the illegal and abusive practice of forced marriage?

It's not exactly 'dissatisfaction'...

Where am I doing the explaining to this crowd of thousands? Can you let me know? January is a bit tight to be honest - the kids are back at school and the house is upside down after Christmas but if you think it can be quick-ish (and local) I can do sometime in the second week?

Starcup · 01/01/2022 20:22

@KimikosNightmare

And what the hell has forced marriage got to do with surrogacy? That happens as part of certain cultures and thousands of women are in that situation each year

It’s not illegal and how do you prove it’s forced…..?

Forced marriage is illegal.

Oh well in that case, it won’t happen if it’s illegal…..
Starcup · 01/01/2022 20:19

@KimikosNightmare

And for someone that is big on proclaiming surrogacy isn’t isn’t the same as IVF

Eh? I have said nothing of the sort. I think you are confusing me with another poster.

I'm sorry you lack the comprehension skills to understand I was referring to women who might be pressured into being a surrogate.

I mentioned forced marriage as you apparently were incapable of imagining a situation where family pressure might be brought to bear. Iused it as an example.

Isn’t the same, in the sense you think they are separate debates, yet you disagree with both that’s why it’s relevant.

‘Forced’ marriages is a rubbish example to compare, as it’s a complex mix of cultural norms in what happens as routine, in one part of the world vs 2022 in the west.

Forced marriages will happens far far more frequently in all parts of the world and be a bigger issue than surrogacy so pointless comparing the two in this thread. It deserves its own thread at the very least.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 20:08

@RepentMotherfucker

There's a (really really enormous) difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

Jesus. Hmm

Kudos to those of you still going with this...

Jesus all you like, but good luck trying to explain your dissatisfaction to the thousands of people involved.
KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 20:08

And what the hell has forced marriage got to do with surrogacy? That happens as part of certain cultures and thousands of women are in that situation each year

It’s not illegal and how do you prove it’s forced…..?

Forced marriage is illegal.

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 20:07

And for someone that is big on proclaiming surrogacy isn’t isn’t the same as IVF

Eh? I have said nothing of the sort. I think you are confusing me with another poster.

I'm sorry you lack the comprehension skills to understand I was referring to women who might be pressured into being a surrogate.

I mentioned forced marriage as you apparently were incapable of imagining a situation where family pressure might be brought to bear. Iused it as an example.

RepentMotherfucker · 01/01/2022 19:58

There's a (really really enormous) difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

Jesus. Hmm

Kudos to those of you still going with this...

Starcup · 01/01/2022 19:46

@KimikosNightmare

When you say refuse, do you mean - Refuse to be a surrogate (if asked) or refuse to accept someone else being your surrogate?

If you mean the former (I assume you do) then I don’t think the average person would agree to being someone’s surrogate. Despite what’s portrayed in here, most people wouldn’t be willing to do it for a plethora of reasons

Well, setting aside the fact you have contradicted yourself in even acknowledging that there are reasons why someone wouldn't want to be a surrogate, given you were previously arguing how wonderful it was, why do you think there are laws against forced marriages?

There are plenty of reasons why a woman would not go ahead with a forced marriage, yet that happens. It seems entirely credible that a woman faced with a family all telling her what a wonderful gift she's making would have her resistance worn down.

Oh and god only knows what "gotcha" you think you have constantly referring to my opposition to IVF. There are many posters who have explained what is wrong with surrogacy.

No, you didn’t make yourself clear. People are not mind readers, especially regarding extreme views… you could mean anything!

And what the hell has forced marriage got to do with surrogacy? That happens as part of certain cultures and thousands of women are in that situation each year.

It’s not illegal and how do you prove it’s forced…..? Some people are happy with their future husbands, so where does that leave your argument? It can’t be forced if they are happy to go along with it…. Hmm

You might disagree with it, but I’d like to see you stand up in front of the thousands of people from different cultures and backgrounds and explain to them all why they are all wrong getting involved with arranged marriages….hmm]

And for someone that is big on proclaiming surrogacy isn’t isn’t the same as IVF (whilst readily admitting you disagree with both) and asking why I am not sticking only to surrogacy, but if a hypocrite to bring in to the debate a cultural norm for tens of thousands of women.

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 19:19

When you say refuse, do you mean - Refuse to be a surrogate (if asked) or refuse to accept someone else being your surrogate?

If you mean the former (I assume you do) then I don’t think the average person would agree to being someone’s surrogate. Despite what’s portrayed in here, most people wouldn’t be willing to do it for a plethora of reasons

Well, setting aside the fact you have contradicted yourself in even acknowledging that there are reasons why someone wouldn't want to be a surrogate, given you were previously arguing how wonderful it was, why do you think there are laws against forced marriages?

There are plenty of reasons why a woman would not go ahead with a forced marriage, yet that happens. It seems entirely credible that a woman faced with a family all telling her what a wonderful gift she's making would have her resistance worn down.

Oh and god only knows what "gotcha" you think you have constantly referring to my opposition to IVF. There are many posters who have explained what is wrong with surrogacy.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 15:43

@KimikosNightmare

The "altruistic" route still involves the deliberate creation of a child to give away. It's still commodification of human beings.

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

When you say refuse, do you mean - Refuse to be a surrogate (if asked) or refuse to accept someone else being your surrogate?

If you mean the former (I assume you do) then I don’t think the average person would agree to being someone’s surrogate. Despite what’s portrayed in here, most people wouldn’t be willing to do it for a plethora of reasons.

OhHolyJesus · 01/01/2022 15:41

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

A sister might make the offer to her sibling and she may be 100% certain that is able to do it, having had a child or even completed her family or perhaps having never been pregnant before. She is of sound mind and thinks she can do it. The sibling accepts and all is fine, there are no problems with the pregnancy and the baby is born healthy, the sister recovers well from the birth and they all live happily. Or something somehow goes wrong. The offer itself could cause a problem in the sibling relationship, there could be difficult getting pregnant, there could be a miscarriage/s resulting in deeply emotional issues with pain and physical risks and there could even be a question over a disabled foetus, extreme morning sickness, regret, issues with a husband or partner who has to do more with existing children whilst the woman struggles physically in late pregnancy and maybe even the wish to terminate the pregnancy.

Granted, this was between friends and not between sisters but it's still relevant in terms of altruistic surrogacy. Would it be different - better or worse - if this was between sisters?

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4239144-Surrogacy-ends-in-abortion-and-ends-a-friendship

It could also be that a sibling asks their sister. She will have seen their sibling struggle with infertility for years, perhaps there was a childhood disease or condition that meant their sibling would always struggle to conceive and the sister had been waiting the question for years too. Maybe she has felt the burden of it and had it as an expectation of her and is resigned and feels she can't say no. There are numerous scenarios and each one is individual.

There is an argument to say that as commercial surrogacy is a transaction it is a simpler arrangement. Of course it would be disingenuous to say there were no emotions involved at all but once contracts are signed it could be said that the process is relatively straightforward as both parties agree on diet, having sex, kissing, breastmilk etc. This is harder to navigate in families I think.

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationshipadvice/comments/hr29qg/myysisteranddbilwonttletmeekissmyy_bf/

I've read many a story about surrogacy in families and many of them work well and all the adults are fine, the children were all too young to comment and won't know any different, whether their grandmother has given birth to them and pumped breastmilk for the first 6 months of life, or maybe their aunt is also their mother and the egg that made them came from elsewhere. I do find that, in terms of coercion, it's possible that surrogacy within families is more likely to happen. I have read about the mother of two sisters and how proud she was of the eldest daughter being so kind and I can't imagine it would be easy for that woman to say she has doubts or a change of heart. I've also heard about family surrogacy in families with a strong faith and strict cultures where the women as subservient or serve a purpose. It's very complex and no one family is exactly the same as any other so naturally a surrogacy within a family could only be compared to another on basic principles. They are not the same.

For the record, I do think surrogacy works for many many couples, the surrogate-born children may also be just fine, but as we saw with adopted children and see more with donor conceived child more recently, some are fine and others are not. It isn't about the majority. We don't say, well the majority of adopted children are fine so let's not worry about the few who do suffer genealogical bewilderment and have mental health issues as a result. We try to help them, learn from them, see how potentially problems can be avoided and even build regulatory and legal frameworks to keep them safe.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 15:39

@KimikosNightmare

The "altruistic" route still involves the deliberate creation of a child to give away. It's still commodification of human beings.

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

That’s your view, but as discussed several times, you view IVF as the same and many people would agree with your view on surrogacy but not IVF….

So who’s right who’s wrong…..

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 14:52

The "altruistic" route still involves the deliberate creation of a child to give away. It's still commodification of human beings.

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

FannyCann · 01/01/2022 14:42

This is a great Twitter thread that explains the issue of "junk" liberty. Surrogacy is not a liberty it is a crime.

twitter.com/caitlin_roper/status/1473205771592613892?s=21

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
Starcup · 01/01/2022 13:27

Go back to the early 1900s and thinking that women could comprehend enough about politics to justify having the vote could be considered an extreme view

This is exactly the type of ‘example’ that illustrates the extreme point of view. To compare it to that is nonsense.

Women were second class citizens end of. They were unable to vote on decisions that would ultimately affect them directly. Every single one of them.

In this scenario the belief by the extreme ‘feminists’ are -

‘We don’t believe ANY women under any circumstances is able to make an informed decision about the negative consequences of surrogacy.

We don’t distinguish between circumstances (ie a best friend doing it for her infertile friend or a rich couple paying)

We don’t believe women when they say they want to do it as they see it as a positive in order to help someone.

They can’t be trusted so we want to take the decision completely away from them so they can’t and don’t have a choice. We see it as immoral in every circumstances, therefore we are right’

Yeah….. great outlook. Really empowering and not at all controlling…..