Page 19 | To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Blackbird1234 · 2021-12-30T18:29:38+00:00

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

NotBadConsidering · 02/01/2022 01:12

Sadly they don’t in many a shit situation they’re brought in to world in

So you think it’s sad when that happens? So do I. So in surrogacy we have an entirely predictable situation where we know in 9 months time the baby will be born into a situation that you and I find sad. We have the opportunity to put something in place before it happens, so it isn’t like all those other situations you find sad. What do you suggest?

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:55

It can work under certain situations

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:52

@crunchermuncher

starcup I think it's already been said but Do you agree with the concept of laws? Or are you advocating anarchy? (Because it sounds like you are- free choice for all, about everything. How do you think a society with no laws would work? Why would it be better? Can you elaborate?

If you do agree we need laws, who should make them? When the government consults on a policy change, who should get to respond? Why shouldn't normal people get involved? Its a more direct way to be involved than voting for a party (which is also important).

I agree with everything @timeisnotaline said

crunchermuncher · 02/01/2022 00:49

starcup I think it's already been said but
Do you agree with the concept of laws? Or are you advocating anarchy? (Because it sounds like you are- free choice for all, about everything. How do you think a society with no laws would work? Why would it be better? Can you elaborate?

If you do agree we need laws, who should make them? When the government consults on a policy change, who should get to respond? Why shouldn't normal people get involved? Its a more direct way to be involved than voting for a party (which is also important).

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:26

@NotBadConsidering

Better than ‘women can’t chose ever, ever because we say’

The baby doesn’t get a choice.

Sadly they don’t in many a shit situation they’re brought in to world in….

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:25

@FannyCann

I’ve said all I’ve got to say

Again, I’ve said everything.

Thank goodness.

That’s not very kind now is it?

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:25

@timeisnotaline

No one can fully predict what effect a pregnancy can have on their body... it can end in disability or even death. Can a price be put on that? I haven’t read the thread but I disagree with this completely as long as there’s no commercial arrangement or coercion. Women and men can consent freely to all kinds of risks. I personally won’t go bungee jumping or dirt bike riding or drive a motorbike as it’s outside my risk tolerance, but would consider sky diving or hang gliding. It’s taking away women’s capacity to say we simply can’t consent. Totally against commercial surrogacy, voluntary surrogacy in particular when the mother knows the family to be is in my mind different. I do object to anyone writing the birth mother out of the dialogue eg prominent gay couples announcing we’re pregnant!! Well, no, there is a real woman out there who is actually pregnant. Not you. And let’s not ignore the risks she’s taking for you.

Evidence shows babies bonds with dads when they are the primary carer, I don’t see any evidence that babies given to loving parents who want them are in any way disadvantaged.

👏👏👏 Brilliant totally agree.

NotBadConsidering · 02/01/2022 00:21

Better than ‘women can’t chose ever, ever because we say’

The baby doesn’t get a choice.

FannyCann · 02/01/2022 00:20

I’ve said all I’ve got to say

Again, I’ve said everything.

Thank goodness.

timeisnotaline · 02/01/2022 00:19

No one can fully predict what effect a pregnancy can have on their body... it can end in disability or even death. Can a price be put on that?
I haven’t read the thread but I disagree with this completely as long as there’s no commercial arrangement or coercion. Women and men can consent freely to all kinds of risks. I personally won’t go bungee jumping or dirt bike riding or drive a motorbike as it’s outside my risk tolerance, but would consider sky diving or hang gliding. It’s taking away women’s capacity to say we simply can’t consent.
Totally against commercial surrogacy, voluntary surrogacy in particular when the mother knows the family to be is in my mind different. I do object to anyone writing the birth mother out of the dialogue eg prominent gay couples announcing we’re pregnant!! Well, no, there is a real woman out there who is actually pregnant. Not you. And let’s not ignore the risks she’s taking for you.

Evidence shows babies bonds with dads when they are the primary carer, I don’t see any evidence that babies given to loving parents who want them are in any way disadvantaged.

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:13

Keep going ldontWanna if you’ve got the time and inclination you go for it!

RepentMotherfucker · 02/01/2022 00:10

@ldontWanna

Pigeon.Playing chess. 'Nuff said.

Can I direct the honourable lady to her own advice?

ldontWanna · 02/01/2022 00:09

@Starcup

If both outcomes a negative why is only one worthy of discussion? Why is one never questioned really but the other is opposed to such a degree, when really the outcome for the child could be shit on both accounts…

Because it's a different discussion. Because it's irrelevant to surrogacy and the risks ,negative effects and bad outcomes for the mothers and babies. Because there are things put in place to help with that,safeguards, legal frameworks etc. even if they aren't 100% effective. There is work still being done,campaigns,charities, new bills etc. It's nowhere near being done with. Because a woman having the right to reproduce is not the same as taking advantage of that right and what's worse, buying it. Because a thread only has 1000 posts and debating the rights and wrongs of everything on a single one is pointless and detracts from what can be a very important discussion. Because OP asked what's wrong with surrogacy.

I can keep going.

RepentMotherfucker · 02/01/2022 00:07

@NotBadConsidering

Starcup’s legal framework for surrogacy:

“Women can choose to do it, it doesn’t matter if they suffer trauma, loss, disability or death, or financial loss, or that the baby is sold, or suffers trauma down the line, because these women are grown adults and we don’t need to look after them at all and it doesn’t even matter about the babies.”

Get the White Paper ready, next sitting of Parliament and get it through!

Maybe we can extend this framework to all areas?

Stop fucking babying us! We'll make our own laws up!

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:05

@ldontWanna

Pigeon.Playing chess. 'Nuff said.

Im so sick of covid threads, this is refreshing

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:04

@NotBadConsidering

Starcup’s legal framework for surrogacy:

“Women can choose to do it, it doesn’t matter if they suffer trauma, loss, disability or death, or financial loss, or that the baby is sold, or suffers trauma down the line, because these women are grown adults and we don’t need to look after them at all and it doesn’t even matter about the babies.”

Get the White Paper ready, next sitting of Parliament and get it through!

Better than ‘women can’t chose ever, ever because we say’

RepentMotherfucker · 02/01/2022 00:03

@ldontWanna

Pigeon.Playing chess. 'Nuff said.

I know, I know!

Starcup · 02/01/2022 00:02

If both outcomes a negative why is only one worthy of discussion? Why is one never questioned really but the other is opposed to such a degree, when really the outcome for the child could be shit on both accounts…

ldontWanna · 02/01/2022 00:02

Pigeon.Playing chess. 'Nuff said.

NotBadConsidering · 02/01/2022 00:01

Starcup’s legal framework for surrogacy:

“Women can choose to do it, it doesn’t matter if they suffer trauma, loss, disability or death, or financial loss, or that the baby is sold, or suffers trauma down the line, because these women are grown adults and we don’t need to look after them at all and it doesn’t even matter about the babies.”

Get the White Paper ready, next sitting of Parliament and get it through!

RepentMotherfucker · 02/01/2022 00:00

@Starcup

**Do you really not understand why saying 'yes x is bad but y is also bad' isn't an argument for x?

Really?

I think if that is the case you are out of your intellectual depth here. As in life presumably**

I’ve got a degree so not doing too bad. 😉

Stop throwing insults because a poster has a different stance. Not very mature is it? For someone so intelligent

You've avoided the question again.

My question to you is - do you think that saying 'yes x is bad but y is also bad' is an argument for x?

Yes or no?

Starcup · 01/01/2022 23:57

Can you forward it to me when you get it? I almost can't wait to see how it comes out. grin

No need, my pleased to paste you in it

Starcup · 01/01/2022 23:56

@NotBadConsidering

I’m not actively trying to change the policy, I never will. Most people generally don’t get involved with policy making unless it affects them. That’s the same for anything

Yes, because leaving policy discussion around surrogacy down to those who only benefit from surrogacy, is sure to end well 🙄.

Yeah not everyone is hardcore like those activists on here

Starcup · 01/01/2022 23:55

**Do you really not understand why saying 'yes x is bad but y is also bad' isn't an argument for x?

Really?

I think if that is the case you are out of your intellectual depth here. As in life presumably**

I’ve got a degree so not doing too bad. 😉

Stop throwing insults because a poster has a different stance. Not very mature is it? For someone so intelligent

RepentMotherfucker · 01/01/2022 23:55

@NotBadConsidering

I’ll create a framework and send it to you tomorrow

I look forward to you solving a problem that grown ups policy makers haven’t been able to solve despite years of trying.

Can you forward it to me when you get it? I almost can't wait to see how it comes out.