To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Excellent points @zweisamkeit

‘[I think about] who my real mum is…I just really want to know like, who she is and meet her maybe.’ (Traditional surrogacy)

‘Would you like to get in contact… would you like to keep in contact?’ (TS)

‘Sometimes I can go, ‘Is it natural? Is it normal? Is it…a normal thing to happen?’ but kind of assure myself that it is fine.’ (Gestational surrogacy)

‘I would like to know who he is…quite a lot…Recently a lot more than I used to.’ (Sperm donation)

‘It’s more important to me now….Um, and I’m just always thinking about what she looks like.’ (Egg donation)

I would like to know who he is…quite a lot. And I told my mum that and I don’t want to tell my dad that because I don’t know how he would feel about that, so…’ (Sperm donation)

‘I think mum might be a bit upset but she’d understand about it but…I’d only do it when I was 50 or 60…I don’t feel the need to now.’ (Egg donation)

‘I’ve gone so long without knowing about her, it’s just easier…I think I’d want to meet to see if I had anything in common.’ (Egg donation)

‘I heard it’s when you’re 18 or something you can try to find out who it was, so I would possibly consider doing that, but I don’t know really.’ (Egg donation)

Some quotes from 14 yos conceived by different methods.

To those who are defending surrogacy, especially commercialised, you are doing so because:

• Sometimes it's okay.
• Other children have it worse in different circumstances.
• Rich parents can give their children advantages and opportunities.

Compared to:

• it is the commercialised practice of acquiring a child.
• there are huge ethical concerns about the use of a woman's body being commercialised in this way, both for the woman who gives birth and, in the case of an egg being donated, the woman who donates her eggs.
• there are significant medical implications for a woman to be pregnant, and to give birth.
• in many countries, the parents have a great deal of control in the decision making regarding the woman's body, and the unborn baby, whilst pregnant.
• we now know much more about attachment disorder; surrogacy actually actively fosters the strong possibility of that.
• in many countries the mother gives up all her legal rights to be known as a mother.
• the definition of a woman's "choice" in this processes, is very sketchy, especially as she is being financially compensated for this.
• several countries have made the decision to ban the practice altogether.

The arguments for it just do not stack up, but I'm desperate to hear some better ones than just "parents have given their children all the opportunities possible and other children come into this world and have it worse". That's not a reason not to condemn something, just because something worse exists in comparison. Moreover, money is no indicator of sacrifice, commitment or love when children are concerned.

That's really interesting. Looking at the website ot seems to focus on inter country adoption which is very open to abuse.

I’ve just finished listening to a Savage Minds podcast which explores this very issue with guest Arun Dohle. Arun was adopted and now campaigns against adoption and surrogacy seeing both as essentially exploitation of the poor by the rich and neglect of children’s rights by the state.

I recommend it as an enlightening listen to anyone interested in this topic.

Arun firmly centres the rights of children.

His website is here

www.againstchildtrafficking.org/what-we-do/

This is linked from his website

www.stopsurrogacynow.com/the-statement/#sthash.RDAz8vfO.CkmuZMQI.dpbs

"Sometimes it's OK" acknowledges that sometimes it's not OK. So we shouldn't legislate for the things that can and do go wrong because they don't always? Where does balance tip? OK 99% of the time? 50%? 10%?

[quote flippertyop]@OhHolyJesus yes that is an extreme example - as are some parents who can't afford one child and have ten - also an extreme example. Could you honestly look a happy surrogate child in the face and say that they shouldn't have been born. If surrogate children have issues I will absolutely listen to those but you are arguing on behalf of children who wouldn't have existed otherwise and I don't thinks it's your place to say they shouldn't have had the opportunity of living a full and happy life [/quote]
👏👏👏

[quote flippertyop]@RepentMotherfucker if I knew that I was a much wanted and planned child and my parents had gone out their way financially and emotionally to have me I don't think I would have an issue with it. I think your view of children being ripped from their mothers arms is a little over dramatic. That was the plan - always. You can't compare that to my circumstances and my children. I wanted to have them and so of course if they were taken it would be devastating - but that is not the same as this situation. You see the money being paid as Bad thing. I see it as a sign of commitment to wanting a child really badly. It is by no means guaranteed they will have issue when they get older they may well be perfectly happy with their lovely parents and wonderful upbringing. You have no facts to back up that they are any more likely than nY other child to have issues [/quote]
When money isn't a scarce resource, spending a lot of it doesn't actually show any kind of commitment.
"I want it, I can afford it, I bought it." Just like the fancy convertible, Louis Vouitton bag or the fashion breed dog. It just shows that you can afford to buy something that you want.

Using that money to pay a woman to take all the risks, do all the work, endanger her health (mentally ,physically and emotionally) doesn't show commitment.

[quote flippertyop]@RepentMotherfucker if I knew that I was a much wanted and planned child and my parents had gone out their way financially and emotionally to have me I don't think I would have an issue with it. I think your view of children being ripped from their mothers arms is a little over dramatic. That was the plan - always. You can't compare that to my circumstances and my children. I wanted to have them and so of course if they were taken it would be devastating - but that is not the same as this situation. You see the money being paid as Bad thing. I see it as a sign of commitment to wanting a child really badly. It is by no means guaranteed they will have issue when they get older they may well be perfectly happy with their lovely parents and wonderful upbringing. You have no facts to back up that they are any more likely than nY other child to have issues [/quote]
Where have I said anything about a baby being ripped from its mothers arms?

You won't find any studies because you would never get it past an ethics committee and no mother would consent to being involved in such a trial - what does that tell you in itself? But there are many mammal studies out there which show massive effects on baby animals from being removed from a mother at birth.

You would find it devastating to have your children removed but you don't think a baby who has spent 9 months learning who its mother is and who is absolutely programmed to be with that mother at all costs because that is what keeps babies safe would find it devastating to suddenly be presented with another mother? Or two fathers? That's such confused thinking.

There is tonnes of evidence and it's also just common sense. But you don't want to see it. Fine. But don't pretend you have any facts on your side. There is no evidence whatsoever that you can remove babies from a birth mother without it having huge detrimental effects on that baby. None.

Of course, this distraction about wealthy families of course removes the need to look at the many health risks taken by egg donors and surrogate mothers.

And back up thread are plenty of accounts of women suffering those. But maybe, they are again the wrong sort of women, and anyway, they ‘knew what they were doing, didn’t they’?

[quote flippertyop]@Dozer I haven't asked anyone to post any information. There are no facts around this. And I am speaking from experience of two families I know well who have very happy children. [/quote]
Of course there are facts around this

www.psychologicalscience.org/publications/observer/obsonline/how-mother-child-separation-causes-neurobiological-vulnerability-into-adulthood.html

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111102124955.htm

theconversation.com/a-sudden-and-lasting-separation-from-a-parent-can-permanently-alter-brain-development-98542

First page of google. There's a lot more.

[quote crunchermuncher]@starcup

Still waiting for a reply to my questions on how society is to handle this issue.

Still......waiting.....

Of course you can have a different point of view, but if you can't back it up with evidence and have no reasonable and considered response to others who challenge your point of view, you can't expect your point of view to be taken seriously, to be given equal weighting.

I would like to understand how you think surrogacy could work and what appropriate and effective safeguards could be put in place. I am willing to rethink my opinion. But you have not given me (or anyone else) any reason to, apart from repeating yourself that having laws is apparently unreasonably infantilising.[/quote]
Here. Posted again for ease of reference.

There's no point saying 'some surrogate children are fine' - that point has been addressed, repeatedly, and is not moving the debate forward.

Many sources of evidence have been posted upthread by many posters- but you apparently can't be arsed to read them.

Can I draw your attention to my last post (scroll up on this page). What are your thoughts?

We don't just let anyone adopt though do we? There are legislations and safeguards put in place aren't there? The bar isn't "is this kid going to have a wealthier life than Jimmy down the street who lives in a box?". There is work still being done, and debates,and campaigns to improve outcomes even further.

And these are children/babies already here so a generally positive outcome is actually the best we can hope and strive for.

No facts? There are plenty of facts. Some examples follow.

It causes babies distress to be separated from their birth mother.

Women in the US can sell their eggs and their womb, and wealthier people can buy them.

One of the DC of the couple you mention will not have access to the identity of his/her biological parent. This puts him or her at risk of psychological harm.

I genuinely don't understand why some posters are so wedded to the notion that it is ok to engage a woman to conceive a baby with the express purpose of giving it away at birth.

How is this good for the baby? How is it good for the birth mothet?

@Dozer and I am considering the arguments but disagree - in the same way as you disagree with mine. That doesn't make me wrong

@Dozer I haven't asked anyone to post any information. There are no facts around this. And I am speaking from experience of two families I know well who have very happy children.

@RepentMotherfucker if I knew that I was a much wanted and planned child and my parents had gone out their way financially and emotionally to have me I don't think I would have an issue with it. I think your view of children being ripped from their mothers arms is a little over dramatic. That was the plan - always. You can't compare that to my circumstances and my children. I wanted to have them and so of course if they were taken it would be devastating - but that is not the same as this situation. You see the money being paid as Bad thing. I see it as a sign of commitment to wanting a child really badly. It is by no means guaranteed they will have issue when they get older they may well be perfectly happy with their lovely parents and wonderful upbringing. You have no facts to back up that they are any more likely than nY other child to have issues

Not good etiquette, flippertyop to ask other posters to post information and evidence, rather than look this up yourself or consider the arguments.

Why can't they just be worse off than other children?

How would it not traumatise a baby to be removed from its mother? Would it traumatise you if I told you you were never going to see your mother/kids/whatever again? What if I provided you with an alternative who promised to be nice to you? What if they paid for loads of shit for you? Would that be ok? What if they had given me 50 grand for you? You ok with it now?

@roarfeckingroarr I think you just had a clingy baby. I had to go back to work after a few weeks. My kids turned out just fine