Page 13 | To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Blackbird1234 · 2021-12-30T18:29:38+00:00

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

ldontWanna · 02/01/2022 18:34

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

They're not the ones carrying the risk(or the higher risk if they use their own eggs) . That's why it's not about them.

And the question of negative outcomes from not being able to do something should ALWAYS be identified,discussed and analysed. Whether you agree with that thing or not. It's the best way to somewhat balance things.

roarfeckingroarr · 02/01/2022 18:30

[quote flippertyop]@roarfeckingroarr I think you just had a clingy baby. I had to go back to work after a few weeks. My kids turned out just fine [/quote]
But you can't pretend that was ideal can you?

No one thinks of the effect on the children. Not enough people think about the vulnerable women involved. The only situation in which I could accept surrogacy as not ethically bankrupt is if the mother was a close friend or family member of the adoptive mother and she was a big part of the baby/child's life

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:28

@Helleofabore

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

And in your world, the potential damage to a surrogate, an egg donor, and psychological damage to the child is nothing compared to a woman wanting a child via surrogacy?

You do realise egg donors can actively chose to donate their eggs?? Did you know that???

Seems to me you’re suggesting they’re forced and that’s erm BS! The same way men can donate sperm.

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:25

@Helleofabore

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.  If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

And there are other ways to be a mother without resorting to exploiting a loved ones’s body and maybe an egg donor’s body as well.

Or… is it simply only being a mother of an infant created just for you that is acceptable!

Funny that because a pp has shared a it a guy who would like adoption to be banned!

So if that ceases to exist tell me how you could become a mother?..

That’s how you see that the person is being exploited, that’s not how they see it. So why should you dictate to them they are wrong…..

Helleofabore · 02/01/2022 18:23

Whatabout. Whatabout.

Helleofabore · 02/01/2022 18:22

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

And in your world, the potential damage to a surrogate, an egg donor, and psychological damage to the child is nothing compared to a woman wanting a child via surrogacy?

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:21

@Helleofabore

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.  If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

I don’t think you quite understand that you are talking about emotional coercion right there.

Rubbish!!

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:17

[quote DaisiesandButtercups]I’ve just finished listening to a Savage Minds podcast which explores this very issue with guest Arun Dohle. Arun was adopted and now campaigns against adoption and surrogacy seeing both as essentially exploitation of the poor by the rich and neglect of children’s rights by the state.

I recommend it as an enlightening listen to anyone interested in this topic.

Arun firmly centres the rights of children.

His website is here

www.againstchildtrafficking.org/what-we-do/

This is linked from his website

www.stopsurrogacynow.com/the-statement/#sthash.RDAz8vfO.CkmuZMQI.dpbs[/quote]
So what would happen to the kids that were removed from their parents?

If adoption wasn’t legal, what would become of the kids? Just children’s homes?

That would be a worse outcome for the child for sure in most cases…. What is he thinking

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:09

**Starcup has offered to put together a document on this today. I am assuming it will be posted here.

TBF a couple of bullet points showing evidence of any kind of engagement with any of the intelligent arguments posters have tirelessly repeated in the face of 'you're so mean', 'what about babies with no heads, they are sad too' and 'you can't legislate against stuff that's bad, that's like denying that women are human beings' would do me at this stage. Still not holding my breath though**

Mate, you wouldn’t agree with legislation anyway. I believe you would constantly argue your ‘point’. You would never ever be satisfied.

Helleofabore · 02/01/2022 18:08

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.  If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

And there are other ways to be a mother without resorting to exploiting a loved ones’s body and maybe an egg donor’s body as well.

Or… is it simply only being a mother of an infant created just for you that is acceptable!

RepentMotherfucker · 02/01/2022 18:06

It's starting to look a lot like GF time...

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:06

@Helleofabore

Yes coercion can happen and there are ethical issues surrounding it, in some situations but you and others want a blanket ban on surrogacy and that’s your right to exercise but you fail to take in to account that some women actually are wanting to do it.

Yes. Until proper, reliable safeguards are in place and a sure way to insure that no harm at all will come to the women whose bodies have been reduced to egg producers and incubators. Until it can be assessed all psychological effects there could be for the child that cannot be mitigated.

Until then, yes. I do think surrogacy needs to be put on hold.

How many women and children are acceptable collateral damage in this pursuit of procuring children for someone who cannot have them?

As PP asked, what are the negative effects on woman who would-be surrogates if they are not used as surrogates? And what would those negative effects be?

As PP asked, what are the negative effects on woman who would-be surrogates if they are not used as surrogates? And what would those negative effects be?

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

It’s still not your choice to make

Helleofabore · 02/01/2022 18:05

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.  If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

I don’t think you quite understand that you are talking about emotional coercion right there.

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:03

@Helleofabore

I love how you want to get involved and save the world and be the champion.

I love how women working and campaigning to make life safer for other women and children, to prevent exploitation, is considered to be something to be mocked.

I would say controlling…

Starcup · 02/01/2022 18:02

[quote crunchermuncher]@starcup

Still waiting for a reply to my questions on how society is to handle this issue.

Still......waiting.....

Of course you can have a different point of view, but if you can't back it up with evidence and have no reasonable and considered response to others who challenge your point of view, you can't expect your point of view to be taken seriously, to be given equal weighting.

I would like to understand how you think surrogacy could work and what appropriate and effective safeguards could be put in place. I am willing to rethink my opinion. But you have not given me (or anyone else) any reason to, apart from repeating yourself that having laws is apparently unreasonably infantilising.[/quote]
Funny that. Ask your friend @OhHolyJesus as she’s just replied in one of her posts that she doesn’t completely disagree with surrogacy (I’m as shocked as you!)

I assume she wants safeguards in place and I agree with that, but I hold my hands up and say that I’m not the best person to comment on legislation etc. I wouldn’t know how his best to implement it.

Wonder if your friend can answer the question your desperate to have an answer for?… I’ll watch this space….

Starcup · 02/01/2022 17:58

@OhHolyJesus

Could you honestly look a happy surrogate child in the face and say that they shouldn't have been born.

At no point have I said that surrogacy shouldn't happen at all, nor would I ever say that a surrogate born child, or an adopted child, or a donor conceived child, should not have been born. I would advocate for legal, regulatory frameworks built around the norm and the extremes so to protect, as far as possible, everyone involved in surrogacy, including the child. The example I shared if the Ozarks was shared with the point of them being an extreme example. I made that point in the post.

If surrogate children have issues I will absolutely listen to those but you are arguing on behalf of children who wouldn't have existed otherwise and I don't thinks it's your place to say they shouldn't have had the opportunity of living a full and happy life

No, you have misunderstood. I have never said any child shouldn't exist or that the opportunity of a full and happy life isn't afford to surrogate born children.

Your point about wealth is a relevant one but not all children born into rich families are happy. By saying this doesn't mean rich families shouldn't have children, nor does it mean poor couples shouldn't have children, that would be wilfully misinterpreting my point which I note only so to avoid it happening again 🤞🏻

At no point have I said that surrogacy shouldn't happen at all

Starcup · 02/01/2022 17:54

@NotBadConsidering

So to be clear following on from my previous post, that twin baby girl being diagnosed with myotonic dystrophy possibly also diagnosed someone else with the same condition, the genetic donor of either the sperm or the egg. What is not clear is who that person was and whether they were told about that possibility. In normal circumstances the parents who were present looking after their baby would find that out they also might have it and be offered genetic counselling as to whether they wanted to know. But this is surrogacy so the questions are:

was the sperm donor informed and did he receive genetic counselling?
was the egg donor informed and did she receive genetic counselling?
do either of these two people have any other children?

So as well as the tragedy of the diagnosis, the horribleness of the recipient, the heart of the family to look after the baby, there is also the unknowns about whether two people have ever been told about the risk they have a genetic disease.

But hey, sometimes it works out, so all good eh?

Extreme

Starcup · 02/01/2022 17:53

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend

oy vey

the upside for the woman is that she gets to risk her health and her life to satisfy the wants of someone else? you really think women are support humans don't you?

It’s not your choice. You don’t agree fine, you don’t get to decide what she does with her body and for her reasons.

Helleofabore · 02/01/2022 17:53

[quote flippertyop]@roarfeckingroarr I think you just had a clingy baby. I had to go back to work after a few weeks. My kids turned out just fine [/quote]
A clingy baby? Do you even read what you write?

A clingy baby, to be trained not to be so ‘needy’, at a month or two old?

FFS

grey12 · 02/01/2022 17:50

@Clymene I meant in this thread

There is a focus on the baby and it makes it seem like it's just a breeze for the birth mother. "Giving a gift" to someone else BS

ldontWanna · 02/01/2022 17:45

Apologies if I'm not making much sense today by the way, monster headache and I managed to electrocute myself.Mumsnetting and housework is dangerous business.

Clymene · 02/01/2022 17:45

@grey12

People talk about the distress to the baby but what about the birth mother? No matter about genetics or how much she wanted to "do it for the other people", she still will be losing the baby she carried and gave birth to

There is documented trauma to women who've had children removed at birth or shortly afterwards. It's why women who have children taken away keep on getting pregnant.

ldontWanna · 02/01/2022 17:44

@Starcup

*She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother. That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.

If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….*

So ... an emotional element. The same emotional element that often puts pressure on women to say yes? That is not a negative effect anyways. There is no bad outcome for women unable to do this because the law says no.

Tbh, there are only two possible answers anyways. Financial and/or emotional. Both highly questionable from an ethical ,legal and moral point of view, and also both more likely to apply as pressure/coercion against women rather than a positive factor.

There is absolutely no actual downside (physically or mentally, possibly you might argue emotionally.. but that applies to a whole manner of things when you can't fix something that's hurting/upsetting a loved one) in either not allowing surrogacy or having it heavily regulated,controlled and with safeguards put in place.

That's how legal frameworks and policies should be and normally are done. An analysis of benefits, downsides, risks , who carries the risk , who benefits , and so on.

As it stands now, the group that carries the most risks, has the least "benefit" and the least rights and protections with the added "bonus" that preventing them from taking that risk has no actual bad outcome.

So yeah, I really struggle to understand how it can be seen as a good thing even you are inclined to look just at the fuzzy,warm , pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows side.

grey12 · 02/01/2022 17:41

People talk about the distress to the baby but what about the birth mother? No matter about genetics or how much she wanted to "do it for the other people", she still will be losing the baby she carried and gave birth to

OhHolyJesus · 02/01/2022 17:19

Imagine how these 14 year olds might feel in 10 or 20 years when they want to start their own families?

You can hear how much they want to protect their parents and not hurt them by expressing even a low level of interest in their genetic parents. That's a terrible secret, a burden to bear at such a young age, and to keep it from the ones who love you, who you love the most. I do worry for the mental health and well being of these children.